Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[antcollinet]

Everything was level matched with spl meter,

SPL meters are not accurate enough to prevent level differences causing audible tonality differences (not heard as a level difference). The only way to level match accurately enough is with a test tone and voltmeter at the speaker terminals. And then you need to be targeting 0.1dB - though 0.2dB is probably good enough. This is tricky if your volume control has only 0.5dB steps. You need to get fine grained analogue volume control in there somehow.

And if you are not comparing blind - you can't stop your brain making stuff up based on what you know you are listenting to - even with familiar material. We can't turn off our perceptive biases.

And your blind testing needs to have sufficient number of trials between each pair of devices for statistical relevance (eliminate false positives from guessing).

It is not that easy to carry out a sufficiently well controlled blind test to give a convincing result.


I think it is also fair to say that all AVR's are doing some DSP - even if EQ is off, and especially if using surround sound - there are all sorts of settings that impact the sound - that might not be the same from one AVR to another - the only way to be certain of avoiding this is with analogue input, and whatever the equivalent is of "pure direct" which by passes any A-D and D-A and the processing in between.

 

[kawauso]

Here’s a simple way to blind-test two AVRs using the same speakers.
Split the line-level signal and feed it into both AVRs simultaneously. Put both AVRs in Pure Direct so you don’t accidentally leave any tone controls, subwoofer HPFs, or other DSP engaged. There are measurements showing that some AVRs add noticeable noise just by running an external input through their DSP path, so Pure Direct avoids that as well.

On the speaker side, use a speaker selector that lets one pair of speakers be switched between two amplifiers. Just make sure the switch is designed so the two amps are never connected to the speakers at the same time. A selector with a remote control helps a lot because someone else can switch it instantly for you, which keeps the test blind.

For level matching, send a 1 kHz test tone and measure the voltage at the speaker terminals. Even with 0.5 dB volume steps, you can often get the difference within about 0.2–0.3 dB unless you get very unlucky.

As for trials: if you want statistical rigor, something in the 15–20 trial range is ideal. But even 10 trials are enough: if someone keeps getting it wrong, then they simply can’t tell the difference. Overall, this method is surprisingly easy to carry out in practice.

 

[sahil fardeen]

So all in all, are we still of the basis that all avr sound the same, be it 3800h or A1H, just want to be educated in this topic…

That will save me a ton of money, i am more of a value guy than anything else XD.
I used to believe that every avr sounds the same, as people here say, until i tried it in person…

@antcollinet @kawauso Apologies. What i meant when i heard differences was the method i use them to test (multichannel only) just like most other end users would use. Level matched using spl meter, relying on the respective room correction only for distaces and using the builtin pure direct mode in denon/ straight mode in yamaha. All those modes/enhances/tone controls/compressors/dialogue adjustments everything that can be disabled is done under settings.

Room correction eq/any other graphic eq is disabled. So this is as close as it gets to getting the “vanilla” sound of the amps, without relying the complex methods stated above. I still think this is a fair enough method to test the pure sound/tonality of the individual amps.
And moreoever, the speakers, source, room everything remains the same.

Regarding spl differences caused due to the tonal difference, it is still valid as that is the difference that we are trying to hear… I would only level match them A-weighted.
And regarding the differences caused by the DSP and processing- well yes, that’s exactly what i am trying to hear- and what makes a difference in sound for multichannel (like separation/object panning). This separates each of them, since its an avr and multichannel is its core use.

 

[popej]

Put both AVRs in Pure Direct

Isn't the result easy to guess? If you do the correct DBT, you won't perceive any differences.

 

[kawauso]

So all in all, are we still of the basis that all avr sound the same, be it 3800h or A1H, just want to be educated in this topic…

That will save me a ton of money, i am more of a value guy than anything else XD.
I used to believe that every avr sounds the same, as people here say, until i tried it in person…

@antcollinet @kawauso Apologies. What i meant when i heard differences was the method i use them to test (multichannel only) just like most other end users would use. Level matched using spl meter, relying on the respective room correction only for distaces and using the builtin pure direct mode in denon/ straight mode in yamaha. All those modes/enhances/tone controls/compressors/dialogue adjustments everything that can be disabled is done under settings.

Room correction eq/any other graphic eq is disabled. So this is as close as it gets to getting the “vanilla” sound of the amps, without relying the complex methods stated above. I still think this is a fair enough method to test the pure sound/tonality of the individual amps.
And moreoever, the speakers, source, room everything remains the same.

Regarding spl differences caused due to the tonal difference, it is still valid as that is the difference that we are trying to hear… I would only level match them A-weighted.
And regarding the differences caused by the DSP and processing- well yes, that’s exactly what i am trying to hear- and what makes a difference in sound for multichannel (like separation/object panning). This separates each of them, since its an avr and multichannel is its core use.

Using an SPL meter cannot get you close enough for a valid comparison.
Even tiny level mismatches will create the illusion of tonal differences, and you cannot bypass that bias by force of will.
As long as you let each AVR apply its own distance correction, you’re already comparing two different processing chains. That alone makes the test conditions invalid.
Multichannel-only comparisons also don’t work because you cannot switch instantly.
If two AVRs are identical in 2ch, they are identical in multichannel. That’s the physics of how these devices operate.
Your method might feel “fair enough,” but perceptual bias is extremely strong. Without blind switching and proper voltage-based level matching, your impressions won’t reflect actual differences in the hardware.
There’s nothing wrong with enjoying subjective impressions, but they don’t demonstrate that the AVRs have different tonality.

Once you verify that properly-matched AVRs sound identical, you can safely choose the X3800H.
It offers excellent stability, useful features like the four Quick Select buttons, solid app control, and Dirac ART is genuinely impressive.

 

[kawauso]

Isn't the result easy to guess? If you do the correct DBT, you won't perceive any differences.

Even though the outcome has been obvious for decades, subjectivists still refuse to accept it.
I want to eventually wake up a certain subjectivist friend, so I researched test methods with some degree of accuracy and reproducibility, and I also bought a speaker selector for that purpose.

 

[sahil fardeen]

Using an SPL meter cannot get you close enough for a valid comparison.
Even tiny level mismatches will create the illusion of tonal differences, and you cannot bypass that bias by force of will.
As long as you let each AVR apply its own distance correction, you’re already comparing two different processing chains. That alone makes the test conditions invalid.
Multichannel-only comparisons also don’t work because you cannot switch instantly.
If two AVRs are identical in 2ch, they are identical in multichannel. That’s the physics of how these devices operate.
Your method might feel “fair enough,” but perceptual bias is extremely strong. Without blind switching and proper voltage-based level matching, your impressions won’t reflect actual differences in the hardware.
There’s nothing wrong with enjoying subjective impressions, but they don’t demonstrate that the AVRs have different tonality.

Once you verify that properly-matched AVRs sound identical, you can safely choose the X3800H.
It offers excellent stability, useful features like the four Quick Select buttons, solid app control, and Dirac ART is genuinely impressive.

So according to your experience, should all recievers sound exactly the same - irrespective of model/brand?

 

[delta76]

So all in all, are we still of the basis that all avr sound the same, be it 3800h or A1H, just want to be educated in this topic…

That will save me a ton of money, i am more of a value guy than anything else XD.
I used to believe that every avr sounds the same, as people here say, until i tried it in person…

@antcollinet @kawauso Apologies. What i meant when i heard differences was the method i use them to test (multichannel only) just like most other end users would use. Level matched using spl meter, relying on the respective room correction only for distaces and using the builtin pure direct mode in denon/ straight mode in yamaha. All those modes/enhances/tone controls/compressors/dialogue adjustments everything that can be disabled is done under settings.

Room correction eq/any other graphic eq is disabled. So this is as close as it gets to getting the “vanilla” sound of the amps, without relying the complex methods stated above. I still think this is a fair enough method to test the pure sound/tonality of the individual amps.
And moreoever, the speakers, source, room everything remains the same.

Regarding spl differences caused due to the tonal difference, it is still valid as that is the difference that we are trying to hear… I would only level match them A-weighted.
And regarding the differences caused by the DSP and processing- well yes, that’s exactly what i am trying to hear- and what makes a difference in sound for multichannel (like separation/object panning). This separates each of them, since its an avr and multichannel is its core use.

Not really, only decent AVRs will sound the same. We have several ones that are borderline broken.
Avr with poor Amp sinad will be harder to apply EQ

 

[peng]

I rely on room correction only for distance and level, i have a crown xti for subwoofers which handle all the eq for my subs (with REW). I always prefer to not eq my speakers- I find it always better to leave it off- Be it ypao/audyssey.

If I were to use YPAO, I would definitely use it with PEQ/REW for the bass range.

I had a 7200w denon in the past which i sold it off due to reliability concerns. Well this sounded superior for me than the 3080 (Subjective reasons - Denon sounds more “thicker” than yamaha. Yamaha is a bit lean and thin sounding).

Smart move, but there is no apparent reason for the 7200W to sound thicker (take it you mean bassier) than the 3080 if used well below their current capabilities. I use the term "current" because if your speakers have impedance dips in the bass region, the Denon's much larger power supply would not starved the speakers, or at least now as much as the 3080 would. Again, that's not a factor if your "current" need is within the capabilities of both units, such as listening with volume at below -15 to -20 in the relative scale.

So i am guessing if the 3800h will serve me better, and the fact that its brand new (whilst being cheap - around $900 in india) with features like individual preouts . Only concern is it should sound similar to my previous denon, which i think it will.

It depends on you listening habit, distance, speaker sensitivities you may or may not need to use the 3800 with external power amps. On that though, just 3 dB higher spl, you need 2X amp output so it really is not a major consideration when choosing AVRs among the little 3800 through A1H, to a large extent that is.

 

[peng]

Everything was level matched with spl meter, so that’s not a factor affecting here.

If you in fact aim for the suggested within 0.3 dB then it might still be a factor, unless your spl meter's specs say its accuracy is that good, and you are using the best possible tone/noise.

I have a set of (5-10) multichannel demo material that i have heard back to back 1000s of time for years (john wick…etc) so that is what i use to test between receivers. And since i am so used to this material any differences i can clearly make out. And believe me, each receivers do sound different in that regard.

No doubt you would think you can, until you do it blind, double blind, than you would suddenly realize how unreliable it is to do sighted, as many, if not all people did.

If it was with some unfamiliar/new material, it would be harder to distinguish

Agreed.

 

[sahil fardeen]

If I were to use YPAO, I would definitely use it with PEQ/REW for the bass range.

Smart move, but there is no apparent reason for the 7200W to sound thicker (take it you mean bassier) than the 3080 if used well below their current capabilities. I use the term "current" because if your speakers have impedance dips in the bass region, the Denon's much larger power supply would not starved the speakers, or at least now as much as the 3080 would. Again, that's not a factor if your "current" need is within the capabilities of both units, such as listening with volume at below -15 to -20 in the relative scale.

It depends on you listening habit, distance, speaker sensitivities you may or may not need to use the 3800 with external power amps. On that though, just 3 dB higher spl, you need 2X amp output so it really is not a major consideration when choosing AVRs among the little 3800 through A1H, to a large extent that is.

1) Crown has peq so that does the bass eq.
2) No, i had no problem in getting good signals to my subs. It was not the bass that was making the 3080 “lean sounding”. No matter what i try, the yamaha didn’t sound as “thick” in sound from the “speakers” as the denon. Until i adjusted the sound via yamaha PEQ and boosted the lower mids- mids. Then it sounded nearly identical.
This is why i believe both amps sounded different.
And i have tested both of these amps side by side. I can attest to what i say was very audible for me. Dont know why. But i still could hear the “house sound” of various brands.

And this was with the demo material i have heard for over 1000 times over the years. I know exactly how it should sound

 

[kawauso]

So according to your experience, should all recievers sound exactly the same - irrespective of model/brand?

It wasn’t a fully formal DBT, but I once had a friend do a blind comparison between:

JVC R-K731 compact mini system
vs
Sony XA-900ES + Accuphase C-2800 + Denon PMA-SA11

He didn’t know which system was playing each time.
We matched levels as precisely as possible, targeting around 75 dB at the listening position. At that SPL, the R-K731 operates fully linearly, so output limitations were irrelevant.

Before starting, I prepared a randomized playback sequence, and we conducted 17 trials in total.

Under these conditions, he failed to identify the correct system all 17 times.

That’s why level matching and blinding matter so much.
Once sighted bias is removed, the “differences” many people believe they hear simply vanish.

 

[peng]

Not really, only decent AVRs will sound the same. We have several ones that are borderline broken.
Avr with poor Amp sinad will be harder to apply EQ

Agreed, but I think we have to assume when people, especially those who obviously are experienced hobbyist such as @kawauso , saying that avrs sound the same they likely meant "decent", or "well designed/built/spec'ed" avrs when used well within their specified limits. It is not reasonable to assume that someone would say av receivers sound the same to mean a Marantz Cinema 70 would sound the same as a Cinema 30 driving a pair of KEF Ref1 sitting 12 ft from them.

 

[sahil fardeen]

If I were to use YPAO, I would definitely use it with PEQ/REW for the bass range.

Smart move, but there is no apparent reason for the 7200W to sound thicker (take it you mean bassier) than the 3080 if used well below their current capabilities. I use the term "current" because if your speakers have impedance dips in the bass region, the Denon's much larger power supply would not starved the speakers, or at least now as much as the 3080 would. Again, that's not a factor if your "current" need is within the capabilities of both units, such as listening with volume at below -15 to -20 in the relative scale.

It depends on you listening habit, distance, speaker sensitivities you may or may not need to use the 3800 with external power amps. On that though, just 3 dB higher spl, you need 2X amp output so it really is not a major consideration when choosing AVRs among the little 3800 through A1H, to a large extent that is.

Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews, it still should be irrelevant as my speakers are very high sensitivity.

 

[peng]

1) Crown has peq so that does the bass eq.
2) No, i had no problem in getting good signals to my subs. It was not the bass that was making the 3080 “lean sounding”. No matter what i try, the yamaha didn’t sound as “thick” in sound from the “speakers” as the denon. Until i adjusted the sound via yamaha PEQ and boosted the lower mids- mids. Then it sounded nearly identical.
This is why i believe both amps sounded different.

Makes sense...

And i have tested both of these amps side by side. I can attest to what i say was very audible for me. Dont know why. But i still could hear the “house sound” of various brands.

To know why, watch Dr. Toole, Dr. Olive's video's or read Dr. Toole's book. Don't be surprised to find they they wouldn't care what you say/think, about "hearing" the differences, unless you do it double blind.

As to house sound of various brands, sure, I would bet if done cited, well over 5 out of 10, more likely over 8 out of 10 would do a comparison between say a Marantz Cinema 30 and a Denon AVR-A10H will say he heard the Marantz house brand, i.e. warmer/musical sound and a punchier, more crystal clear/brighter Denon sound, and if you put them through double blind tests, they would fall apart lol... In cited or may even be single blind tests, those who hear the Marantz sound would also tell you the difference is so obvious, that anyone can do the same and heard the same difference. Unfortunately, that's how this thing work and that's why so many people would continue to chase their preferred "sound" in this hobby, there is no way to convince people to change their mind, until they changed their mind some day, themselves (been there, done that..)

And this was with the demo material i have heard for over 1000 times over the years. I know exactly how it should sound

Again, it may not be possible for anyone to convince that regardless of how confident you are with you way of doing it, you might just have to actually follow the published DBT comparison protocols, to know how reliable your methods were/are. It may also be better to ignore the naysayers, and continue to enjoy your preferred "house sound" lol...

 

[sahil fardeen]

Makes sense...


To know why, watch Dr. Toole, Dr. Olive's video's or read Dr. Toole's book. Don't be surprised to find they they wouldn't care what you say/think, about "hearing" the differences, unless you do it double blind.

As to house sound of various brands, sure, I would bet if done cited, well over 5 out of 10, more likely over 8 out of 10 would do a comparison between say a Marantz Cinema 30 and a Denon AVR-A10H will say he heard the Marantz house brand, i.e. warmer/musical sound and a punchier, more crystal clear/brighter Denon sound, and if you put them through double blind tests, they would fall apart lol... In cited or may even be single blind tests, those who hear the Marantz sound would also tell you the difference is so obvious, that anyone can do the same and heard the same difference. Unfortunately, that's how this thing work and that's why so many people would continue to chase their preferred "sound" in this hobby, there is no way to convince people to change their mind, until they changed their mind some day, themselves (been there, done that..)


Again, it may not be possible for anyone to convince that regardless of how confident you are with you way of doing it, you might just have to actually follow the published DBT comparison protocols, to know how reliable your methods were/are. It may also be better to ignore the naysayers, and continue to enjoy your preferred "house sound" lol...

i agree. Maybe it was a placebo. i just thought of sharing this.

Just a correction, i didn’t mean to say the “house sound” as you stated here. What i was trying to imply was it sounded “different”. No snake oil methods involved here. Spare me for such

 

[kawauso]

Agreed, but I think we have to assume when people, especially those who obviously are experienced hobbyist such as @kawauso , saying that avrs sound the same they likely meant "decent", or "well designed/built/spec'ed" avrs when used well within their specified limits. It is not reasonable to assume that someone would say av receivers sound the same to mean a Marantz Cinema 70 would sound the same as a Cinema 30 driving a pair of KEF Ref1 sitting 12 ft from them.

View attachment 492569

Yes, an amplifier must not be defective, and it must not be pushed into audible distortion.
From what I saw in the reviews, the Cinema 70 seems fine as long as it isn’t subjected to heavy loads, but under extreme load it reportedly behaves as if it’s malfunctioning until you power-cycle it.

 

[peng]

Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews, it still should be irrelevant as my speakers are very high sensitivity.


What's the distance, the peak SPL you listen to? What would be the high sensitivity, 90 dB could be considered high to some, but 96 dB would probably be considered high by most people. As you know, 6 dB would result in a factor of 4 in terms of amplifier power output, or 2 in terms of voltage output. If the contents have peaks of like 20 dB or more, it could make a difference in some cases.

 

[sahil fardeen]

Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews, it still should be irrelevant as my speakers are very high sensitivity.



What's the distance, the peak SPL you listen to? What would be the high sensitivity, 90 dB could be considered high to some, but 96 dB would probably be considered high by most people. As you know, 6 dB would result in a factor of 4 in terms of amplifier power output, or 2 in terms of voltage output. If the contents have peaks of like 20 dB or more, it could make a difference in some cases.

Distance from lcr is 3.3m, Surrounds are 2m, peak spl A weighted would around 90-95db at the max tolerable
LCRs are 98db sensitivity, Rest are 92db.
(JBL 3153 and JBL 8102)

 

[peng]

Distance from lcr is 3.3m, Surrounds are 2m, peak spl A weighted would around 90-95db at the max tolerable
LCRs are 98db sensitivity, Rest are 92db.
(JBL 3153 and JBL 8102)

I missed that the "Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews", which review is that? That seems quite a low number for any of the midrange Yamaha AVR.
Regardless, while 50 W might be okay for 3.3 m under some use cases, I don't think it can do justice to the JBL 3153. No wonder you have the Crown amps.