Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[delta76]

The reason for the 10 dB worse distortion is that TI DAC chips were used instead of the AKM previously. AKM had a fire that burned down its fab so they couldn't produce any DAC chips until they could rebuild their fab. I guess Denon could have chosen ESS instead of TI but pricing and availability could have been an issue at the time.

This unit's performance met the TI datasheet performance so the Denon engineers did a reasonable job with what they got. Since noise was not worse and distortions were multiple orders of magnitude beyond auditable IMO the compromise was a reasonable one.

yes we argued at length at the beginning of the thread. I really wanted to give Denon the benefit of the doubt that they did not just choose TI despite worse performance. There are a lot of things that R&D could not control. What if Denon wanted 10k chip at $8/p for 2 years, but ESS wanted 20k chip at $10/p, or vice versa, Denon wanted 20k chip but ESS can only guarantee 10k. etc. Or at a personal level, could be the "guy" at Denon just did not like the "guy" at ESS and went to a different supplier.

Engineers at Denon made the best out of it. I was disappointed too but credit where credit is due.

 

[peng]

The reason for the 10 dB worse distortion is that TI DAC chips were used instead of the AKM previously. AKM had a fire that burned down its fab so they couldn't produce any DAC chips until they could rebuild their fab. I guess Denon could have chosen ESS instead of TI but pricing and availability could have been an issue at the time.

This unit's performance met the TI datasheet performance so the Denon engineers did a reasonable job with what they got. Since noise was not worse and distortions were multiple orders of magnitude beyond auditable IMO the compromise was a reasonable one.

I fully agreed, and I said what I said was also (as others alluded to) because somehow D+M managed to exceed the TI DAC IC's 93 dB SINAD spec., based on Amir and other's measurements on the AVR-X4800H, Cinema 40 and probably even the Cinema 50 measured by a member. So it would seem that the TI DAC could almost match the AKM DAC's much have SINAD spec., I don't know if somehow D+M had a deal with TI, such that TI would pick up the chips that perform better than their published "typical spec". If that's the case, then it could be the 4800 and C40 might have the better chips based on TI's QA/QS testing. That's "binning" I guess. This is obviously totally speculative, we may never know the real reason, so it might just remain a mystery that the TI PCM5102A by itself alone, has SINAD spec only 93 dB (typical), yet the C40 and 4800, could measure 97/95 dB respectively, even with the opamps and volume IC in place. At the mid 90 SINAD performance level, D+M's claim that when they substituted the DAC chip, they ensure performance would not suffer (something like that) appeared to be true. IMD did suffer a little but not by much.

 

[masterhw]

So what if I did this?
PC (source) --> USB DAC (Topping E30 or E30 II Lite) --> Denon 3800 analog RCA inputs --> Front Hi-Fi speakers

If you’re bypassing the Denon’s digital section then you’re skipping out on room correction*, which will make a bigger difference to fidelity than anything SINAD related. Before you even begin sweating SINAD over 80, you should have room correction absolutely dialed.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

If you’re bypassing the Denon’s digital section then you’re skipping out on room correction*, which will make a bigger difference to fidelity than anything SINAD related. Before you even begin sweating SINAD over 80, you should have room correction absolutely dialed.

Thanks! Unless I do the DRC myself and I use EAPO to apply it right at the source (PC)
But I probably won't do that. Having it within the A/V receiver is more convenient.

 

[EWL5]

About Amir's review, I tend to agree with peng: having a newer version perform 10 dB worse than the previous one is not anything close to normal and it should raise all eyebrows. So maybe it was just a bad unit, who knows.

If you're surprised by this, then you may not be familiar with what's going on in the audio, car, etc. (any industry really) product offerings:

https://www.amazon.com/Enshittification-Everything-Suddenly-Worse-About/dp/0374619328/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._SjOlLplb7Z0Rvscl1ZihXsKv3j5PVjTYExbZMJmZuBKQBPQGxWfcM-a52j2CgpHCp0tBgMZMUcMwzG6CQTiNduVjSzLVohOuFRNHMm3EtE.KDHQbfhdkw32bbULC0SXv0Er1caGnBqQj9-I291oGn0&dib_tag=se&hvadid=713624458073&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9003466&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=17488702010415969538--&hvqmt=b&hvrand=17488702010415969538&hvtargid=kwd-2445481718384&hydadcr=22561_13730668&keywords=enshittification+book&mcid=affbe7e842ba3e418e4e0d0a3eb40a45&qid=1763562219&sr=8-1

 

[masterhw]

Thanks! Unless I do the DRC myself and I use EAPO to apply it right at the source (PC)
But I probably won't do that. Having it within the A/V receiver is more convenient.

right, the asterisk was in case of source-based DRC like Dirac Live on PC.

If you’re starting out I would jump to “A1 Evo Express” by our forum’s own @OCA. It a hot-rodded version of Audyssey which uses REW for filter calculations and takes only an hour or two to set up, even less if you’re already familiar with REW.
links and discussion is here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/a1-evo-express-from-oca-the-latest-version-hes-conjured-up.3331417/

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks. Don't worry, I have just talked to OCA. Turns out he can't just "rest and enjoy" so he's actually working on something even better. Let's all stay tuned!

 

[sahil fardeen]

I have a doubt, do both 4800 and 3800 use the same TI Dac? On some sources i read the only difference is the Dac used between them, but here i read both use the same TI dac

 

[peng]

I have a doubt, do both 4800 and 3800 use the same TI Dac? On some sources i read the only difference is the Dac used between them, but here i read both use the same TI dac

No need to doubt, you can search and find the following information:

 

[sahil fardeen]

No need to doubt, you can search and find the following information:

View attachment 492045

Thanks for sharing, very useful.

I have another doubt, then how did 4800h obtain better scores if both 3800 and 4800h has identical dsp and dac?

 

[EWL5]

Thanks for sharing, very useful.

I have another doubt, then how did 4800h obtain better scores if both 3800 and 4800h has identical dsp and dac?

That's a personal decision and you can answer that with your wallet!

Not once have I felt that my 3800 was "less than" because it didn't get a recommend from Amir. LOL!

 

[masterhw]

I have another doubt, then how did 4800h obtain better scores if both 3800 and 4800h has identical dsp and dac?

different implementation! there’s more to SINAD than just the chip/IC used. some products use great DACs but don’t get the most out of them. others, like the X4800H squeeze it for everything it’s got.

 

[peng]

Thanks for sharing, very useful.

I have another doubt, then how did 4800h obtain better scores if both 3800 and 4800h has identical dsp and dac?

On that, you are not the only one, but we can only speculate the reasons. If you worry about it, and want to save money by going with the 3800, you can contact Amir and see if he would give priority to measuring your unit, if you order one and ship to him.

 

[sahil fardeen]

On that, you are not the only one, but we can only speculate the reasons. If you worry about it, and want to save money by going with the 3800, you can contact Amir and see if he would give priority to measuring your unit, if you order one and ship to him.

I am in india xD

 

[sahil fardeen]

By what i have read, 3800h is a bargain for sure. Can get it for around $850 brand new with warranty here in India. It has everything one can ask for in an avr. Denon nailed it

 

[peng]

I am in india xD

Then just buy from someone who would accept return if you don't like it. I really wouldn't worry about the measurements, things can happen that caused the lower numbers, based on specs and known facts I am confident the 3800 will be just as good in terms of sound quality. I had the 1800 briefly and the sound quality was as good as anything I had in the past, when used within it's limit, and as preamp/dac.

 

[sahil fardeen]

Then just buy from someone who would accept return if you don't like it. I really wouldn't worry about the measurements, things can happen that caused the lower numbers, based on specs and known facts I am confident the 3800 will be just as good in terms of sound quality. I had the 1800 briefly and the sound quality was as good as anything I had in the past, when used within it's limit, and as preamp/dac.

Yeah… i had no issues with the 3800h getting lower scores / not worried anything about the lower sinad rating. I just wanted to clarify my basic doubt. Thats all about it

 

[escape2]

The 3800h is also on sale currently in the US. I'm tempted to upgrade from my lowly S740H, mainly for the better version of Audyssey, but also for pre-outs.

Are there any talks of Denon releasing new models yet? It seems like the current models have been around for a number of years now...

 

[delta76]

The 3800h is also on sale currently in the US. I'm tempted to upgrade from my lowly S740H, mainly for the better version of Audyssey, but also for pre-outs.

Are there any talks of Denon releasing new models yet? It seems like the current models have been around for a number of years now...

no reason to wait when it's so far way. if it's within your budget, I'd say go for it. the upgrade to Audyssey Multi XT32 is worth it

 

[EWL5]

The 3800h is also on sale currently in the US. I'm tempted to upgrade from my lowly S740H, mainly for the better version of Audyssey, but also for pre-outs.

Are there any talks of Denon releasing new models yet? It seems like the current models have been around for a number of years now...

I think the current lineup is slowly being refreshed, starting w/the 2850:

AVC-X2850H - 7.2 Ch. 95W 8K AV Amplifier with HEOS® Built-in | Denon - Non-Commerce

7.2 Ch. 95W 8K AV Amplifier with HEOS® Built-in

www.denon.com

Based on the very small feature add over the 2800, I would imagine the rest of the lineup will also be minimally updated. The star of the show (Dirac all the way to ART) is already in the current 3800 and higher so there's really no reason to wait (some of us actually bought it before the MSRP went up!).