Sounds like you have problems with either power surge, or heat management. Are you AVR running hot?
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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
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sahil fardeen
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i guess the weather issues…. it’s too humid here, and when raining there is heavy condensation and can see dew formation all around my house….
in summer it’s fine
That'll do it. If you are getting condensation in your electronics - that is outside its specified operating conditions.
sahil fardeen
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Any remedy? i have various stereo amps and a few crown xti none of them have issue in the same room with the same weather. And note it was the amp pcb board and not the hdmi that went bad in all the denon and marantz…
One of the solution is to keep the amp idle and warm all the time but its not feasible…
a dehumidifier should work. I would add some Silica gel package (you can buy one big bag and use on demand) next to the AVR for extra protection
sahil fardeen
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Thats some serious advice. Thanks
Jose Hidalgo
Major Contributor
Hi guys. I'm interested in the 3800, but I've seen the disappointing measurements by Amir.
If I'm getting this right, the bad measurements are mostly related to the DAC part, right?
So what if I did this?
PC (source) --> USB DAC (Topping E30 or E30 II Lite) --> Denon 3800 analog RCA inputs --> Front Hi-Fi speakers
Would that make the performance better, bypassing the Denon's internal DAC?
I'm asking this because I already own a Topping E30 and a Topping E30 II Lite, so this could be a good way of reusing them.
As we know, both of them are stellar DACs measurement-wise, so...
PS: here I'm only talking about stereo performance for Hi-Fi purposes. For Home Theater purposes, I guess I'm happy enough with all the measurements as a whole, given all other up-to-date features. Including HDMI 2.1 and DRC (32-point calibration). With that said, if you know any better for ~1000 €, please let me know before I pull the plug on this one. Thank you!
If I'm getting this right, the bad measurements are mostly related to the DAC part, right?
So what if I did this?
PC (source) --> USB DAC (Topping E30 or E30 II Lite) --> Denon 3800 analog RCA inputs --> Front Hi-Fi speakers
Would that make the performance better, bypassing the Denon's internal DAC?
I'm asking this because I already own a Topping E30 and a Topping E30 II Lite, so this could be a good way of reusing them.
As we know, both of them are stellar DACs measurement-wise, so...
PS: here I'm only talking about stereo performance for Hi-Fi purposes. For Home Theater purposes, I guess I'm happy enough with all the measurements as a whole, given all other up-to-date features. Including HDMI 2.1 and DRC (32-point calibration). With that said, if you know any better for ~1000 €, please let me know before I pull the plug on this one. Thank you!
1 - The internal DAC is fine - distortion and noise inaudible for almost everyone in real world listening. you won't hear the difference between it and your E30, especially if listening via speakers - which obviously you will be. Amir slated it because it was a bit worse than it's predecessor - he (rightly) expects things to move in the other direction.
2 - Why on earth would you be interested in the 3800 if you were only going to use it as an analogue input 2 channel amp? There are smaller, cheaper and better options if that is all you need.
Jose Hidalgo
Major Contributor
Allow me to elaborate then.
- I'm sure it's inaudible for most people. With that said, -10 dB SINAD isn't exactly "a bit worse", it's a lot worse. 87 dB SINAD is terrible, when a little Topping E30 goes to 112...
I'm talking about Hi-Fi here, so forgive me if I won't settle for 87 dB SINAD and other related measurements.
Also, if I may, you're not answering my question. If I already own a nice USB DAC that clearly outperforms the Denon's DAC, I should use it, right?
- I never said that!
I'll be using it:
- For Hi-Fi as an analog input 2ch amp
- For HC as a 5.1 or 5.1.2 multichannel DAC/amp. I already have a 5.1 speaker set, which I'm going to upgrade either to another 5.1, or to a 5.1.2 Atmos.
So basically:
===> Hi-Fi : PC --> USB DAC --> Denon 3800 (analog IN) --> Stereo
===> Home Theater (1) : PC --> USB to Toslink --> Denon 3800 (Toslink) --> Multichannel
===> Home Theater (2) : TV --> HDMI ARC --> Denon 3800 (HDMI ARC) --> Multichannel
... all that with a single remote, and a nice automatic 32-point DRC, which I believe will eliminate the need for me to buy a UMIK-1 and do it myself with REW.
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The 87 dB SINAD is distortion-related.Allow me to elaborate then.
- I'm sure it's inaudible for most people. With that said, -10 dB SINAD isn't exactly "a bit worse", it's a lot worse. 87 dB SINAD is terrible, when a little Topping E30 goes to 112...
I'm talking about Hi-Fi here, so forgive me if I won't settle for 87 dB SINAD and other related measurements.
Also, if I may, you're not answering my question. If I already own a nice USB DAC that clearly outperforms the Denon's DAC, I should use it, right?
- I never said that!
- For Hi-Fi as an analog input 2ch amp
- For HC as a 5.1 or 5.1.2 multichannel DAC/amp. I already have a 5.1 speaker set, which I'm going to upgrade either to another 5.1, or to a 5.1.2 Atmos.
So basically:
===> Hi-Fi : PC --> USB DAC --> Denon 3800 (analog IN) --> Stereo
===> Home Theater (1) : PC --> USB to Toslink --> Denon 3800 (Toslink) --> Multichannel
===> Home Theater (2) : TV --> HDMI ARC --> Denon 3800 (HDMI ARC) --> Multichannel
... all that with a single remote, and a nice automatic 32-point DRC, which I believe will eliminate the need for me to buy a UMIK-1 and do it myself with REW.
The DNR is 108 dB, so there is no audible noise.
I also don’t believe anyone could actually hear distortion at that level.
If you turn off the unused amplifier channels, the unit can output a clean 2 V signal.
Using the analog inputs will only add noise, so there is no advantage there.
If the DAC performance still bothers you on a psychological level, then upgrading to the X4800H is an option.
It also looks a bit nicer.
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I'm not sure why so many members are bothered with inaudible measurements?
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Does the 3800 have a bypass on analogue inputs? I mean - does the analogue inputs go through adc - dac conversion prior to analogue outputs?
The amp section performs at a similar level to the DAC - also in the 80's sinad range - so no, if you put a 115 sinad dac in front of it, you are not going to get 115 sinad out of the amp.
In any case - inaduible distortion is inaudible. If you are not going to hear it -why bother with the added complexity of adding an external DAC?
But if you get it, you can try. Set it up with the external DAC - find a way of accurately level matching between external and internal (volt meter on speaker terminals with test tone) and get someone to help you do a blind test - see if you can hear any difference.
Or better still - take the Klippel listening test and find out you can't hear distortion below around -20 to -30 db when listening with speakers - and stop worrying about it.
If you want the 3800 for the features and other stuff it brings - buy it, because you won't hear it's measured inadequacies. If you do get one, Use @OCA's Audessey One scripts to set up the room correction - that actually *will* bring you a significant audible benefit.
It has a "pure direct" mode that by passes A/D and D/A - so direct from the analogue inputs, cleverly bypassing the 86dB sinad DAC, into the 85dB Sinad Amp section.
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Not clear to me if he is planning to use the amp high level outs or the rca pre-outs.
So what happens pure direct analogue in and analogue out?
Is the volume control an analogue attenuator?
Does the 3800 work as a pure pre?
Although clearly inaudible, would there be a measurable difference?
The 3800 has the same preamp/dac design, used the same opamps, volume control IC, dac IC. switch ICs etc., there is little reason for it to have 10 dB lower SINAD if measured under the exact conditions. With due respect, Amir is good, really good, but no one is perfect, so it is still possible that maybe he happened to have a outlier sample that didn't perform as well, and/or the way he hooked it up at the time, such as his grounding scheme, layout wasn't done as well as he did when measuring the 4800 and the Cinema 40. Again, the design/build are virtually the same for those unit, so I wouldn't worry about the decent but not great SINAD as measured.
Yes you can bypass the build in DAC if you used analog inputs and use direct or pure direct mode. I have done it, can't tell you whether you will get audible better sound quality, as that would depends on other factors and is highly subjective, but in theory, yes you can do it and you should be able to get, in terms of SINAD if that's your focus, closer to the level of your Topping DAC, not 112 dB, but probably up to 105 to 107 dB, based on measurements on other D+M models.
- I never said that!
- For Hi-Fi as an analog input 2ch amp
- For HC as a 5.1 or 5.1.2 multichannel DAC/amp. I already have a 5.1 speaker set, which I'm going to upgrade either to another 5.1, or to a 5.1.2 Atmos.
So basically:
===> Hi-Fi : PC --> USB DAC --> Denon 3800 (analog IN) --> Stereo
===> Home Theater (1) : PC --> USB to Toslink --> Denon 3800 (Toslink) --> Multichannel
===> Home Theater (2) : TV --> HDMI ARC --> Denon 3800 (HDMI ARC) --> Multichannel
... all that with a single remote, and a nice automatic 32-point DRC, which I believe will eliminate the need for me to buy a UMIK-1 and do it myself with REW.
Another thing to consider, is the practical side, the mid 80 SINAD was measured with output level at 2 V. You most likely will never approach such high level, up to 1 to 1.2 V would probably be the highest your system would reach unless you listen really loud, sitting close and your speakers have relatively low sensitivity. So in all probability, even based on the measurements, the 3800 would likely performed just as good as the 4800 and Cinema 40, yes even on paper.
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Jose Hidalgo
Major Contributor
So it really is that bad...
Also, thank you @peng . Your answer is exactly what I was aiming for. Clear and non-judgmental. Not the same old "I know better than you" audiophile criticism that some people tend to throw around to people they don't even know, to compensate for whatever sad, sad stuff is going on in their lives. Guys, was that so difficult?
About Amir's review, I tend to agree with peng: having a newer version perform 10 dB worse than the previous one is not anything close to normal and it should raise all eyebrows. So maybe it was just a bad unit, who knows. With that said, apparently Amir asked Denon about this:
But like peng also said, in real world operation (output level close to 1V) this is something we probably won't even consider, so...
So it really is that bad...
Also, thank you @peng . Your answer is exactly what I was aiming for. Clear and non-judgmental. Not the same old "I know better than you" audiophile criticism that some people tend to throw around to people they don't even know, to compensate for whatever sad, sad stuff is going on in their lives. Guys, was that so difficult?
About Amir's review, I tend to agree with peng: having a newer version perform 10 dB worse than the previous one is not anything close to normal and it should raise all eyebrows. So maybe it was just a bad unit, who knows. With that said, apparently Amir asked Denon about this:
But like peng also said, in real world operation (output level close to 1V) this is something we probably won't even consider, so...
If you know your seating distance from your speakers, sensitivity of them, and you desired maximum SPL when you occasionally want to listen really loud (as you know 85 dB avg, 105 dB peak is THX, about what you would hear in a good cinema), the gain of your external amp that you plan on using, then you can estimate/calculate the 3800's preamp/dac output level required for such conditions, or just give me the numbers and I can do it for you. In my case, I have more than enough amp power, but if my preamp/dac would never reach even 1 V, likely 0.2 to 0.5 V most of the time. The daying people often don't realize how little power they actually need, and/or how often their preamp, amp clips, both can be true, the way to know it with more certainty is to do an actual estimate/calculate based on the individual use case. Of course, on money and time no object basis, one can just opt for a preamp/dac that can do 4 Vrms SINAD >=100 dB, poweramp 500/1000 W 8/4 ohm SINAD >= 100 dB, then there will likely be no need to even think about anything else, ie. estimtae/calculations, its like buying fully comprehensive insurance with no deductible lol......
The reason for the 10 dB worse distortion is that TI DAC chips were used instead of the AKM previously. AKM had a fire that burned down its fab so they couldn't produce any DAC chips until they could rebuild their fab. I guess Denon could have chosen ESS instead of TI but pricing and availability could have been an issue at the time.
This unit's performance met the TI datasheet performance so the Denon engineers did a reasonable job with what they got. Since noise was not worse and distortions were multiple orders of magnitude beyondauditable audible IMO the compromise was a reasonable one.
[Edit] PS. TI has basically concluded that their audio DAC performance is for all intents and purposes good enough, and they have bowed out of the audio DAC specsmanship games. They instead have their engineers do other things, such as developing 20 GHz RF DACs.
This unit's performance met the TI datasheet performance so the Denon engineers did a reasonable job with what they got. Since noise was not worse and distortions were multiple orders of magnitude beyond
[Edit] PS. TI has basically concluded that their audio DAC performance is for all intents and purposes good enough, and they have bowed out of the audio DAC specsmanship games. They instead have their engineers do other things, such as developing 20 GHz RF DACs.
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perceived expectations. we had high hope for the measurements, and were disappointed.
it's not about audibility, but about expectations. When you see the numbers there was no escape it
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