popej
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These are different things. LFE setting is applied to effects channel. Crossover is applied to all other channels, which use small speakers. See:
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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Even I know that lol. But I've seen people in other forums even recently talk about setting LFE at 80Hz even though (as I understand it) should never be changed. That's why this was unclear to me. Thanks for the clarificationThese are different things. LFE setting is applied to effects channel. Crossover is applied to all other channels, which use small speakers. See:
Bass management - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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80Hz has been the old school recommendation since the days when THX actually meant something and is a nice "middle ground" for many SWs. The final crossover selection is really up to each of your channel's FR capability. My L/C/R are in a passive Martin Logan soundbar so my crossover setting is well above 100Hz to compensate for the lack of bass. I think a good setting is around your surround speaker's lower -3dB or -6dB.Even I know that lol. But I've seen people in other forums even recently talk about setting LFE at 80Hz even though (as I understand it) should never be changed. That's why this was unclear to me. Thanks for the clarification
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Based on published power specs alone, one could just do 2800 over the 3800 since it's a 10W difference! However, you wouldn't see me putting 4 ohm speakers on a 2800...
I've read about the old THX recommendation and it makes sense for satellite speakers. Audyssey likes to set my surrounds to 60Hz but I always bump it back up to the manufacturer recommended 80Hz.
I'm still learning about this stuff myself. Only just getting the hang of Audyssey subwoofer trim and why it affects sub boominess.
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Every time you say 120Hz, do you mean the high-pass filter (HPF) or low-pass filter (LPF)? Are you sure you don't mean that instead of the crossover?I've read about the old THX recommendation and it makes sense for satellite speakers. Audyssey likes to set my surrounds to 60Hz but I always bump it back up to the manufacturer recommended 80Hz. I just checked and the LFE channel is not actually a crossover because there is no rolloff. This is why it should be set to 120Hz and left.
I'm still learning about this stuff myself. Only just getting the hang of Audyssey subwoofer trim and why it affects sub boominess.
Which speakers and SW do you have?
I'm talking about the LFE channel in the receiver which according to the digital surround standards should be set to 120Hz. On the Marantz it was called LPF for LFE, it has a 120Hz default and affected the subwoofer. For the x3800h it's called LPF, the default is 120hz but it only affects IMAX. This I assume means that for non IMAX sources the default is 120Hz.
The LPF is not the same as the crossover setting. The default crossover setting is 80 Hz for the 3800 and is automatically assigned to any speakers that are "Small". However, the crossover can be changed for these speakers and has nothing to do w/the LPF setting (which you correctly stated is more IMAX related).
I made an initial assumption as to your intention based on previous comments I've read elsewhere. Which is why just after your comment, I said:
But I also said it should be changed based on your speaker's frequency response (FR). I gave an example why I had to raise my crossover quite a bit over 80Hz.Which is why just after your comment, I said:
No worries
This is why I asked what speakers you're using since the FR should be public knowledge from the manufacturer!
People do different things for LPF for LFE. Some people even do cascading crossovers (e.g. one on AVR and one on the sub, if available). In addition, you can control the LFE channel roll-off with room EQ system to similar effect. The prevailing theory behind rolling off LFE sooner (than 120hz) and steeper is that it will clear the muddy sound in 100-200hz range, and depending on comparative settings, potentially above that.
The best way is to try in your system and measure/hear the difference between different cut-off points/EQ settings.
The best way is to try in your system and measure/hear the difference between different cut-off points/EQ settings.
Thanks. I've just done a lot more reading and I get the points you are making. Apparently I have some pre-conceptions that while valid are as concrete as I thought. I've been through this learning cycle before (for unrelated topics) so I should have recognised the signs. I can see why 80hz can make sense and as you say it is worth trying so that's what I'm going to do.
Thanks again all
Update: Because of where I'm living and neighbors I do my best to restrict the LFE to my seating area and not spread too far beyond that. Setting LFE to 80hz absolutely kills that and makes the LFE reverb throughout the room. But it definitely increases concentration on the low end and maybe if I wasn't using DEQ it would be ideal.
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Depending on the pages you read (as the manual made references of LPF in several pages), Denon and Marantz, as expected, described LPF in the same way:
As others mentioned, LFE and LPF are very different animals. 80 Hz is generally recommended for LFE, but also as others mentioned, you can set it to whatever you want that best suit your application, though again 80 Hz is generally a good bet for a lot of users.
LPF default setting is, as you know, 120 Hz, and it is also recommended by a lot of users, including me, but if you want your subwoofer to help out in the lower mid bass range, you could bring it all the way to 180 Hz, though that is not my cup of tea, I thought 120 Hz is about optimum for me.
One way to put it, to perhaps add to clarity of what's in the manual, is that LFE setting works a bit like high pass filter for the speakers and low pass filter for the subwoofers and that's way it is often referred to as "crossover setting", whereas LPF, indeed works like low pass filter for the subwoofer. It looks like you are of course 100% clear about what LFE is but may be a little unclear about what LPF is? I hope it is clear now.
Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance
Setting the correct bass management on receivers and processors is essential to getting the most out of your audio system. For some systems 80Hz, the standard THX setting, is a good starting point.
www.audioholics.com
I already understood thatDepending on the pages you read (as the manual made references of LPF in several pages), Denon and Marantz, as expected, described LPF in the same way:
As others mentioned, LFE and LPF are very different animals. 80 Hz is generally recommended for LFE, but also as others mentioned, you can set it to whatever you want that best suit your application, though again 80 Hz is generally a good bet for a lot of users.
LPF default setting is, as you know, 120 Hz, and it is also recommended by a lot of users, including me, but if you want your subwoofer to help out in the lower mid bass range, you could bring it all the way to 180 Hz, though that is not my cup of tea, I thought 120 Hz is about optimum for me.
One way to put it, to perhaps add to clarity of what's in the manual, is that LFE setting works a bit like high pass filter for the speakers and low pass filter for the subwoofers and that's way it is often referred to as "crossover setting", whereas LPF, indeed works like low pass filter for the subwoofer. It looks like you are of course 100% clear about what LFE is but may be a little unclear about what LPF is? I hope it is clear now.
View attachment 382760View attachment 382761
Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance
Setting the correct bass management on receivers and processors is essential to getting the most out of your audio system. For some systems 80Hz, the standard THX setting, is a good starting point.
but I made an incorrect assumption as to @EWL5's original intention. I did more reading after @Oddball's comments and realized that while I understood the theory basics, I didn't understand that the 120Hz is a strong recommend, not an absolute. There is so much to read out there with so many different opinions lol.Anyway, as I said above, I just tried 80Hz but it boosts the low frequencies too much causing them to spread throughout the room, maybe because it's paired with DEQ. My aim is to keep them "relatively" contained from the sub to the seating area and I've more or less achieved that with 120Hz and other things
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Setting a 120hz low pass filter for the LFE channel is the best practice for most, but some with more powerful bed/atmos speakers or different taste for bass flavor in the 100hz and above range one might want to set this lower and/or roll-off steeper. Cascading crossovers are not something often used, but people who use them do know what they are doing and why.
There is this "concern" that if you are setting the low pass filter on LFE lower than 120hz you will be cutting off some of the LFE signal. Valid concern, but in the bigger scheme of things IMO not worth the worry. If that is what works best for your system, you will not be loosing any content, but just have it at lower level than potentially intended.
I do agree that for most people 80hz is the optimal crossover point for their other small speakers. But for bigger systems that might not work, and sometimes people also need to go much higher than 80hz if their speakers are not that capable. So this is really a function of a system and its capabilities but good to start exploring at 80hz.
There is this "concern" that if you are setting the low pass filter on LFE lower than 120hz you will be cutting off some of the LFE signal. Valid concern, but in the bigger scheme of things IMO not worth the worry. If that is what works best for your system, you will not be loosing any content, but just have it at lower level than potentially intended.
I do agree that for most people 80hz is the optimal crossover point for their other small speakers. But for bigger systems that might not work, and sometimes people also need to go much higher than 80hz if their speakers are not that capable. So this is really a function of a system and its capabilities but good to start exploring at 80hz.
So I only learned about "cascading crossovers" today when reading up. My sub only has the 120Hz LPF. But my TR has a 120Hz XO in my receiver, and a 20Hz (should be 10 but BK's are weird) XO with a 6dB filter on my minidsp. So from what I am reading this is a cascaded crossover. Right?
I already understood that
Anyway, as I said above, I just tried 80Hz but it boosts the low frequencies too much causing them to spread throughout the room, maybe because it's paired with DEQ. My aim is to keep them "relatively" contained from the sub to the seating area and I've more or less achieved that with 120Hz and other things
Are you talkong about music or movie?
For movie, if you set LPF to below 120 Hz you will be missing contents in some movie tracks that have LF contents in the LFE channel that could be up to 120 Hz.
Either way, I don’t understand why LPF set to 80 Hz setting would cause the low frequencies any more spread through the room than if set to 120 Hz. It is really strange.. I set LPF to 120 Hz but it is just to capture all the bass recorded in the LFE, that is the 0.1 channel of movies.
For movies. I don't pretend to know why but it might be to do with room modes? At 80Hz the room feels pressurized which is great but that happens mostly behind my seating position and the result is a bass resonance throughout the room. This is what was happening before, even at 120Hz before I sorted my XT32 config (in the last few days) and rest was dealt with by Antimode. So maybe I could set LPF to 80hz and Antimode again. But I am very happy with the level of bass I am able to achieve because of how "relatively" focussed the bass is right now. I'm living in an apartment so the last thing I need is more bass resonating through the walls.
There were tons of threads on AVS forum about this, some from prominent members like mthomas47. Worth taking a lokie. Might not do magic in every system, but in my system cutting off subs steep after 100hz sounds about right. If any of the LFE content gets reduced in intensity due to that, I guess it will just be a sacrifice for the greater good.
ban25
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Just cutting content out of the LFE channel arbitrarily at 100 Hz doesn't make logical sense. A lot of people on the internet say a lot of things....but that does not make them right.
