napfkuchen
Senior Member
I have connected the left/right speakers via rca-xlr-cable. The active speakers have a hiss which is noticable up to 1m if everything else is "dead silent". The connection to the x3800 does not add any noise (2,5m cable).
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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I curious about how the 2.5m cable is differant from the 1m cables, i this connected to an amp and some other speakers? I wondering when you setup your 3800 what are the distance/level that have been set within the 3800?
Regards
Alex
To those who might be interested in the "maximum" pre out voltage of the AVR-X3800H, and a few other comparable models, the best I could do is to share some information I gathered since the launch of those 2022-23 Denon and Marantz models.
To @Moonbase , I did do another search but still could not find any pre out measurements for the specific AVC/R-X3800H through 1H Denon models so I have to still reference to/fall back on information based on a couple of published manufacturer's own measurements and the specifications of the volume control IC used.
It is important to know that in general, the "maximum" pre out voltages of those kind of Denon and Marantz AVRs, and AVPs are mainly determined by the volume control ICs, as evidenced in the following block diagrams, also published by D+M:
Note: This is why, at least in my opinion, some of the models I cited are in fact relevant. It would be great if there are actual measured results for the specific model you asked about, but again, I couldn't find measurements of that particular model so I had to make reasonable assumptions that are based on the measured models that are of the same of extremely similar design and used the key parts in the signal path from input to output. As an example, the fact that the AVR-X4800H's SINAD is >90 dB dB at 2 V, should be highly relevant to that of the AVR-X6800H that it can be expected to do 90 dB or higher, never a guarantee obviously but again it is at least relevant for reasons I have now explained.
The main reasons (there are others) I mentioned 4 V earlier, in the case of the AVC-X3800H, Denon referred to 3.75 V as the clipping point at 0.1%, if measured at up to 1%, it would be about 4 V. As the OP mentioned, the higher models may do better so those could potentially be clipping at over 4 V but it will not be much higher because of the "maximum" limit of the Volume IC itself.
Those interested in digging into the details, here's an article to read:
hometheaterhifi.com
And, the specs of the volume IC can be downloaded here:
On page 3 of the data sheet:
So one can see why measurements on Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs that use the NJU72343 volume chip could be in the range of about 3 to 4, even higher as in the case of the AVR-X6700H models. It is reasonable to assume that the typical range would be 3 to 4 V, pre amp mode or not makes little difference, except that in preamp mode, we can expect SINAD to remain closer to the optimal point of 85 to 95 dB for the X1800 through X4800H. The X6800H will likely do better than 95 dB, probably around 100-102 dB because it is not bottlenecked by the DAC chip.
I believe I did post the graphs below once or twice before:
Not everyone are "familiar" (again, please don't take it the wrong way) of the above, I happened to have spend a lot of time researching for those information, if I hadn't I would obviously not know about any of those, so I just want to share what I know/found, and hope that it might alleviate some concerns related to the much talked about "1.4 V" maximum, that is simply not factual. The 1.4 V is just the voltage at the point SINAD would likely be at or near it's best. I know Amir had labelled it as "clipping", that is not right, that's the rare moment where I disagree with him, but there isn't anything wrong to agree to disagree or disagree to agree. It is no different than that power amp's rated output, the "rated" or "maximum" output will also be different, depending on the chosen distortions, or more often distortions+noise, aka SINAD.
To me, I wouldn't base the "maximum" of pre out at 0.001 or 1%, but around 0.1%, for power amps, I would probably base it on 0.5% but not 1%, that's just me, others may choose different limits such as as low as 0.01%, or as high as 2%.
To @Moonbase , I did do another search but still could not find any pre out measurements for the specific AVC/R-X3800H through 1H Denon models so I have to still reference to/fall back on information based on a couple of published manufacturer's own measurements and the specifications of the volume control IC used.
It is important to know that in general, the "maximum" pre out voltages of those kind of Denon and Marantz AVRs, and AVPs are mainly determined by the volume control ICs, as evidenced in the following block diagrams, also published by D+M:
Note: This is why, at least in my opinion, some of the models I cited are in fact relevant. It would be great if there are actual measured results for the specific model you asked about, but again, I couldn't find measurements of that particular model so I had to make reasonable assumptions that are based on the measured models that are of the same of extremely similar design and used the key parts in the signal path from input to output. As an example, the fact that the AVR-X4800H's SINAD is >90 dB dB at 2 V, should be highly relevant to that of the AVR-X6800H that it can be expected to do 90 dB or higher, never a guarantee obviously but again it is at least relevant for reasons I have now explained.
The main reasons (there are others) I mentioned 4 V earlier, in the case of the AVC-X3800H, Denon referred to 3.75 V as the clipping point at 0.1%, if measured at up to 1%, it would be about 4 V. As the OP mentioned, the higher models may do better so those could potentially be clipping at over 4 V but it will not be much higher because of the "maximum" limit of the Volume IC itself.
Those interested in digging into the details, here's an article to read:
AVR-Audio Video Reciever-Build Quality: Part V - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Good News! Marantz Says No More AVR LSIs for You! You might recall my article on Audio Video Receiver Build Quality announcing the downgrade of the analog section of almost every AVR and Pre Pro coming from the major Far Eastern manufacturers. The article discussed how multi-channel audio...
hometheaterhifi.com
And, the specs of the volume IC can be downloaded here:
On page 3 of the data sheet:
So one can see why measurements on Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs that use the NJU72343 volume chip could be in the range of about 3 to 4, even higher as in the case of the AVR-X6700H models. It is reasonable to assume that the typical range would be 3 to 4 V, pre amp mode or not makes little difference, except that in preamp mode, we can expect SINAD to remain closer to the optimal point of 85 to 95 dB for the X1800 through X4800H. The X6800H will likely do better than 95 dB, probably around 100-102 dB because it is not bottlenecked by the DAC chip.
I believe I did post the graphs below once or twice before:
Not everyone are "familiar" (again, please don't take it the wrong way) of the above, I happened to have spend a lot of time researching for those information, if I hadn't I would obviously not know about any of those, so I just want to share what I know/found, and hope that it might alleviate some concerns related to the much talked about "1.4 V" maximum, that is simply not factual. The 1.4 V is just the voltage at the point SINAD would likely be at or near it's best. I know Amir had labelled it as "clipping", that is not right, that's the rare moment where I disagree with him, but there isn't anything wrong to agree to disagree or disagree to agree. It is no different than that power amp's rated output, the "rated" or "maximum" output will also be different, depending on the chosen distortions, or more often distortions+noise, aka SINAD.
To me, I wouldn't base the "maximum" of pre out at 0.001 or 1%, but around 0.1%, for power amps, I would probably base it on 0.5% but not 1%, that's just me, others may choose different limits such as as low as 0.01%, or as high as 2%.
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Nicely explained as always, Peng!To those who might be interested in the "maximum" pre out voltage of the AVR-X3800H, and a few other comparable models, the best I could do is to share some information I gathered since the launch of those 2022-23 Denon and Marantz models.
To @Moonbase , I did do another search but still could not find any pre out measurements for the specific AVC/R-X3800H through 1H Denon models so I have to still reference to/fall back on information based on a couple of published manufacturer's own measurements and the specifications of the volume control IC used.
It is important to know that in general, the "maximum" pre out voltages of those kind of Denon and Marantz AVRs, and AVPs are mainly determined by the volume control ICs, as evidenced in the following block diagram, also published by D+M:
Note: This is why, at least in my opinion, some of the models I cited are in fact relevant. It would be great if there are actual measured results for the specific model you asked about, but again, I couldn't find measurements of that particular model so I had to make reasonable assumptions that are based on the measured models that are of the same of extremely similar design and used the key parts in the signal path from input to output. As an example, the fact that the AVR-X4800H's SINAD is >90 dB dB at 2 V, should be highly relevant to that of the AVR-X6800H that it can be expected to do 90 dB or higher, never a guarantee obviously but again it is at least relevant for reasons I have now explained.
The main reasons (there are others) I mentioned 4 V earlier, in the case of the AVC-X3800H, Denon referred to 3.75 V as the clipping point at 0.1%, if measured at up to 1%, it would be about 4 V. As the OP mentioned, the higher models may do better so those could potentially be clipping at over 4 V but it will not be much higher because of the "maximum" limit of the Volume IC itself.
Those interested in digging into the details, here's an article to read:
AVR-Audio Video Reciever-Build Quality: Part V - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Good News! Marantz Says No More AVR LSIs for You! You might recall my article on Audio Video Receiver Build Quality announcing the downgrade of the analog section of almost every AVR and Pre Pro coming from the major Far Eastern manufacturers. The article discussed how multi-channel audio...
And, the specs of the volume IC can be downloaded here:
On page 3 of the data sheet:
So one can see why measurements on Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs that use the NJU72343 volume chip could be in the range of about 3 to 4, even higher as in the case of the AVR-X6700H models. It is reasonable to assume that the typical range would be 3 to 4 V, pre amp mode or not makes little difference, except that in preamp mode, we can expect SINAD to remain closer to the optimal point of 85 to 95 dB for the X1800 through X4800H. The X6800H will likely do better than 95 dB, probably around 100-102 dB because it is not bottlenecked by the DAC chip.
View attachment 378363
I believe I did post the graphs below once or twice before:
View attachment 378359
View attachment 378361
Not everyone are "familiar" (again, please don't take it the wrong way) of the above, I happened to have spend a lot of time researching for those information, if I hadn't I would obviously not know about any of those, so I just want to share what I know/found, and hope that it might alleviate some concerns related to the much talked about "1.4 V" maximum, that is simply not factual. The 1.4 V is just the voltage at the point SINAD would likely be at or near it's best. I know Amir had labelled it as "clipping", that is not right, that's the rare moment where I disagree with him, but there isn't anything wrong to agree to disagree or disagree to agree. It is no different than that power amp's rated output, the "rated" or "maximum" output will also be different, depending on the chosen distortions, or more often distortions+noise, aka SINAD.
To me, I wouldn't base the "maximum" of pre out at 0.001 or 1%, but around 0.1%, for power amps, I would probably base it on 0.5% but not 1%, that's just me, others may choose different limits such as as low as 0.01%, or as high as 2%.
Perhaps Amir chose the 1.4V "clipping point" because that is the default mode as the Denon is shipped (like when journalists test cars only in the default "Normal/Econ" mode instead of "Sport" for apples to apples fuel economy comparison). Only folks w/knowledge of the graph above and changing the proper channels to "pre-out only" in the Denon menu, could compare against something like the RZ50/505 favorably as those AVRs don't have such a feature!
I have had conversation (pm) with Amir on this before. He insisted on calling it "clipping", because to him, it is the correct term. That's because at that point SINAD began to drop precipitously and he considered that "clipping". So, for non preamp mode, it was between 1.4 to 1.6 V. That's the only thing I disagreed with him and I felt it created confusion among some ASR members.
For preamp mode, it is clear, no disagreement at all, that is, at 1.4 to 1.5, may be a little higher in some measurements, SINAD peaks. But that clearly is not "maximum", yet, we both know people could still get confused in terms of maximum vs optimum lol..
I have been testing the entry level AVR-X1800H with my 25.5 dB gain buckeye Hypex NC502MP using cheap rca to xlr interconnects (2m), and have no hiss or hum with either the reasonably sensitive KEF R900 or the BMR that has only 85 dB/2.83V/m sensitivity.
I expect the x1800h's SINAD would be about the same or slightly lower than the x3800h's. So, I have 100% confidence in the X3800H, though hiss might be audible if seating within a couple meters to sensitive speakers (such as >92 dB) with volume cranked up to near 0, say >-10.
I expect the x1800h's SINAD would be about the same or slightly lower than the x3800h's. So, I have 100% confidence in the X3800H, though hiss might be audible if seating within a couple meters to sensitive speakers (such as >92 dB) with volume cranked up to near 0, say >-10.
Yet there will be folks connecting Denons to external low-gain amps (not changing to "pre-out only" in menu) and wondering at the poor performance! This situation is feasible because if you're new to Denon/Marantz, you may not even be aware that such a mode exists! Going back to my car example, if a car make wanted their "Sport" mode to be the "Normal" mode, they should have made it so and pay the penalty, whatever it may be!
We don't know why (maybe some of us do) Denon chose this route, but they did!
Agreed, worth noting that Marantz has improved the buffer stages such that there's now little difference in SINAD between default mode and preamp mode but we only know that for sure for the latest measured SR8015 and probably the Cinema 30. Not sure if the same has been done on the lower Marantz and Denon models.
You made a great point, we should ask Amir to always measure preout at 2 V for both default and preamp modes as he had done on all models prior to the 2022/23 models.
Just tested my $520 x1800h, hdmi input, aux1, volume up to +18, could barely hear hiss with ears almost touch the BMR's raal tweeter!
Under similar conditions, my $3000 AV8801 processor and the $1,200 AV7005 would be heard from 3 mters at volume > -10. Great time to buy D+M, Yamaha, Anthem, Sony, Onkyo etc. avrs/avps, they are effectively much better built than those from 10 years ago.
Under similar conditions, my $3000 AV8801 processor and the $1,200 AV7005 would be heard from 3 mters at volume > -10. Great time to buy D+M, Yamaha, Anthem, Sony, Onkyo etc. avrs/avps, they are effectively much better built than those from 10 years ago.
Thanks for the information this is very helpful for me in deciding on my next AVR. I am feeling that it does rule out the AVR X3800 and that maybe the X6800 or alternatively an ANTHEM would be more in-line with what I want to afford/want to achieve. The options for external high specification amps with RCA seam thin on the ground and RCA to XLR cables are a fudge.To those who might be interested in the "maximum" pre out voltage of the AVR-X3800H, and a few other comparable models, the best I could do is to share some information I gathered since the launch of those 2022-23 Denon and Marantz models.
To @Moonbase , I did do another search but still could not find any pre out measurements for the specific AVC/R-X3800H through 1H Denon models so I have to still reference to/fall back on information based on a couple of published manufacturer's own measurements and the specifications of the volume control IC used.
It is important to know that in general, the "maximum" pre out voltages of those kind of Denon and Marantz AVRs, and AVPs are mainly determined by the volume control ICs, as evidenced in the following block diagrams, also published by D+M:
Note: This is why, at least in my opinion, some of the models I cited are in fact relevant. It would be great if there are actual measured results for the specific model you asked about, but again, I couldn't find measurements of that particular model so I had to make reasonable assumptions that are based on the measured models that are of the same of extremely similar design and used the key parts in the signal path from input to output. As an example, the fact that the AVR-X4800H's SINAD is >90 dB dB at 2 V, should be highly relevant to that of the AVR-X6800H that it can be expected to do 90 dB or higher, never a guarantee obviously but again it is at least relevant for reasons I have now explained.
The main reasons (there are others) I mentioned 4 V earlier, in the case of the AVC-X3800H, Denon referred to 3.75 V as the clipping point at 0.1%, if measured at up to 1%, it would be about 4 V. As the OP mentioned, the higher models may do better so those could potentially be clipping at over 4 V but it will not be much higher because of the "maximum" limit of the Volume IC itself.
Those interested in digging into the details, here's an article to read:
AVR-Audio Video Reciever-Build Quality: Part V - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Good News! Marantz Says No More AVR LSIs for You! You might recall my article on Audio Video Receiver Build Quality announcing the downgrade of the analog section of almost every AVR and Pre Pro coming from the major Far Eastern manufacturers. The article discussed how multi-channel audio...
And, the specs of the volume IC can be downloaded here:
On page 3 of the data sheet:
So one can see why measurements on Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs that use the NJU72343 volume chip could be in the range of about 3 to 4, even higher as in the case of the AVR-X6700H models. It is reasonable to assume that the typical range would be 3 to 4 V, pre amp mode or not makes little difference, except that in preamp mode, we can expect SINAD to remain closer to the optimal point of 85 to 95 dB for the X1800 through X4800H. The X6800H will likely do better than 95 dB, probably around 100-102 dB because it is not bottlenecked by the DAC chip.
View attachment 378363
I believe I did post the graphs below once or twice before:
View attachment 378359
View attachment 378361
Not everyone are "familiar" (again, please don't take it the wrong way) of the above, I happened to have spend a lot of time researching for those information, if I hadn't I would obviously not know about any of those, so I just want to share what I know/found, and hope that it might alleviate some concerns related to the much talked about "1.4 V" maximum, that is simply not factual. The 1.4 V is just the voltage at the point SINAD would likely be at or near it's best. I know Amir had labelled it as "clipping", that is not right, that's the rare moment where I disagree with him, but there isn't anything wrong to agree to disagree or disagree to agree. It is no different than that power amp's rated output, the "rated" or "maximum" output will also be different, depending on the chosen distortions, or more often distortions+noise, aka SINAD.
To me, I wouldn't base the "maximum" of pre out at 0.001 or 1%, but around 0.1%, for power amps, I would probably base it on 0.5% but not 1%, that's just me, others may choose different limits such as as low as 0.01%, or as high as 2%.
The AVM70 has balanced outputs, so if you can live with fewer features, it seems like a good alternative to the X6800H, especially at its sales price.
popej
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I can't see a way to do it.
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I tried the Denon AVR with an external DAC and didn't hear an improvement. However, when I used an external Purifi amp with the ADI-2 DAC FS and didn't use the Denon at all it sounded cleaner to me. That's what I use for music now.
When I watch movies I use the Denon AVR. The Denon is fine for movies but don't expect adding an external DAC will make a noticeable difference.
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Why not leave the amp connected? Mine is on my L and R preouts and is auto-triggered with power-on so it always runs. I still need to add one for the C speaker one of these days, but diminishing returns set in after the first amp.
No, but yes if you use analog input and direct mode or pure direct mode. That's on paper, audible or not will depend.
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Thanks you Peng and popej, confirmed my expectations... unfortunately.
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Thanks, I have a Buckeye NC502MP 2ch that I will be using in the same way.
Yes, but you have to specify the volume setting and the input voltage.
For example, we know at volume 82.5, at maximum digital input level, that is 0 dBFS, the output is about 2 V.
Edit: Keep in mind voltage will be doubled for +6 dB vol increase, halved for 6 dB decrease.
If you had run autosetup/Audyssey, volume 0 (more like +2.5 based on ASR measurements), that is volume 82.5 would be very loud, by THX, it would be 105 dB spl, that is the peak of THX movies, average would be about 85 dB and the voltage would be much lower than 2 V, about 0.2 V
Also, preamp mode or not, voltage will be the same, just that in preamp mode, at the same output voltage, SINAD will be higher, that is distortions plus noise will be lower.
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