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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Again, I agree with you, but I really do wish there are more technical collaboration between those PhDs. The concept of room correction involves tons of advanced maths and engineering knowledge, and surely requires a lot of research.
With due respect to other highly capable software developers who don't have PhDs on staff and work as a team, a quick search found the following, that indicates at least the popular RC software are the results of R&D that involved highly academically qualified individuals. But imagined, again, if they all, or at least some of them, work together for a better products that will benefit a lot more people and make the products more affordable at the same time. It is a tall order for sure, because this is mainly a hobby, that does not impact much, if anything on people's health and safety lol...
Audyssey was established in 2002 as a spin-off from the National Science Foundation engineering research center at the University of Southern California. The company was founded by Professor Chris Kyriakakis from the USC Viterbi School of Engineering and Professor Tomlinson Holman from the USC School of Cinematic Arts, along with two former USC students and researchers, Dr. Sunil Bharitkar and Philip Hilmes.
Technology Designer Magazine Profiles Dirac in Fall 2023 Edition - Dirac
We are excited to share our profile by George McClure in the latest edition of Technology Designer Magazine, where co-founder Mathias Johansson discusses our journey...
www.dirac.com
We are excited to share our profile by George McClure in the latest edition of Technology Designer Magazine, where co-founder Mathias Johansson discusses our journey and innovations in digital sound optimization. Mathias highlights the beginnings of Dirac at Uppsala University and our evolution into a leader in digital room correction technology.
Trinnov | Exclusive Sound Technologies from Trinnov Audio
Exclusive Digital Audio Processing, Immersive Sound, and Active Acoustics Technologies from Trinnov Audio
www.trinnov.com
The origins of the company do not deceive: Trinnov is primarily an engineering company, with technology and innovation at its core.
ARC Genesis | The History of Anthem Room Correction (ARC®)
arc.anthemav.com
A dedicated team of Ph.D. engineers and students set out to analyze and address the adverse effects of rooms. The protocols and algorithms they developed were considered to be the best in the world.
In that link, Dr. Mathias mentioned Uppsala University.
Nice! I took a course for machine learning as part of my MBA. Would've loved to be part of the ML/AI revolution that's happening now!
Sorry I haven’t read through all 113 pages of this thread, but has anyone done blind ABX testing between this and the earlier models to confirm all these measurements issue are actually audible? That’s really all I’m concerned about. Did Amir actually listen to the 3800? I didn’t see that part of the review. Thanks ✌
I asked the same before, never got the answer.
If the amps are good quality like before, I dont see there should be some crazy audible difference between older and models with different dacs. after all they say its 0 and 1s
Mine is still in the box, cant get the time to set it up.
Yes. It’s weird. Who cares about something that isn’t audible? And why didn’t the review include listening test impressions prior to even measuring so it wouldn’t create bias? Seems “scientific” to me. Lol.I asked the same before, never got the answer.
If the amps are good quality like before, I dont see there should be some crazy audible difference between older and models with different dacs. after all they say its 0 and 1s
Mine is still in the box, cant get the time to set it up.
Im torn with bashing on something because of measurements, which wont have any impact on actual performance.
Like measuring a car going 2.7sec to 100 but it should go 2.5, like if anybody will ever notice or do those kind of pulls on daily basis.
Because unless such listening tests are done in tightly controlled apples to apples ways and in DBT, such "test impressions" would mean very little, if anything at all. And it is very difficult for a busy reviewer such as Amir, to do tightly controlled double blind listening tests, along with enough number of participants for such test to be meaningfully valid. So objective measurements are probably the best compromise.
Not sure I agree. We don’t listen in “tightly controlled” environments. You should be able to put 2 avr’s next to each other, with all settings to flat and switch back and forth while listening through revealing, yet average power required speakers that are typical of what is common among consumers.
A speaker that measures poorly should sound “worse”, right? What’s the point of measuring things we can’t hear/see/smell/taste?
I’ve seen his speaker tests and have listening impressions and measurements. I assumed a “review” of AUDIO gear would include listening to the audio it produces.
Except in this case, the way I read the review with my tiny brain, it seems to imply that this poor measurement, leads to this poor measurement, which leads to this poor measurement, which would be like 1 slightly out of round wheel on a car in a car test/review, where it impacts all driving, not just a 0-to-whatever metric.
So in this case of this avr, is it a situation where it has a wheel that is slightly out of round, discovered by measuring, but you’d never notice while driving?
I am not sure what you actually agree or disagree. It seems we agree such tests should be done blind, so what's the point if we don't also do it in a tightly controlled fashion, such as level matching to within +/- 0.2 dB, switch AB, BA within a few seconds, sitting with the ear position unchanged etc.?
Karls_speaker_works
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I would equate the "poor" measurement to my ability to hear ultrasonic energy. I can likely feel a wheel vibration, but no matter how hard I try, I can't hear a 25kHz tone.
Based on the numbers, I believe you'd notice the noise if your room is extremely quiet such as have noise floor below 10 dB (mine's about 20-30 dB). Otherwise I doubt it would make a difference.
Tiny brains are never an issue and a good reason why I made >$20k sales of A/V equipment on my first day nearly 20 years ago (part-time at that)!
We welcome brains of all sizes here!
I agree about levels being the same, but the rest needn’t be so tightly “controlled” because that’s not how we listen in our homes. If the avr measures SO POORLY that it simply can’t be “recommended”, it shouldn’t be too hard to hear how poorly it sounds beside the “better” measuring 3700 (or 3600, etc) in a blind ABX test in an average room that represents where it would typically be used. If you can’t hear a difference, then why waste all this time measuring things and publishing results for things that are not audible to a typical human being in a typical room?
Set the receivers up connected to a quality switcher that’s connected to very good, yet not difficult to drive speakers that are neutral and represent what would typically be used with a midrange avr. I don’t care how long the sound clips are. Take all the time you need. We just need people to reliably pick the “worse” sounding receiver, THEN we can say it is in fact “not recommended”.
Great. If that’s the case it should be easy to prove versus just theorizing. I don’t want to base my purchases on theories. My “listening room” is my living room. At times you can hear the refrigerator compressor, the hvac system, traffic on the street, planes flying overhead, etc etc. You know, a typical residential home that this type of gear is likely to be used in. This isn’t gear that people typically put in purpose built, audiophile listening rooms.
Okay I understand your point, but I think such measurements are very helpful to people who trust them. For example, there is no way I can base my choice of an AVR or AVP+Power amp on listening tests because if will be too time consuming even if I can find enough dealers who stock devices on my short list. Going by measurements such as Amir's I would say a few hours or one fully day will allow me to set up a comparison table using a spreadsheet. Then I can shorten my list to few that has SINAD, IMD, SNR/DNR/linearity, cross talk, output level vs SINAD, and the rest of it, that indicate the numbers are good enough for me to the point I wouldn't be able to "hear" the effects of the non SOTA numbers. Listening tests would have been almost useless to me, and I certainly don't want to have to trust someone's ears/brains.
My point was if someone measured 1 wheel on a car that was measurably out of round compared to the other 3 wheels, but in reality was not so “bad” that you could actually perceive it, why come to the conclusion that you can’t recommend the car based on the measurement? Why not base your conclusion on how the car actually drives?
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