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Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

peng

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Good morning all.

An avid reader of ASR (and limit addicted, I admit), I have just taken the plunge by registering and supporting (with a modest donation) Amir whom I would like to thank for his work.
To sum up, I'm currently hesitating between the Denon AVC-X3700H and the Denon PMA-1600NE HI-FI amp.
Here are the reasons.
My current configuration is as follows: LG OLED 65C8PLA, NODE 2I, CAMBRIDGE CXA81, JM LAB 706 OPALE (bought in 1985 and which are still excellent…)
I am targeting in the near future, thanks to the wise advice of all, a configuration with GENELEC 8351B (or 8361A) + sub SAM (I plan a direct link toslink + toslink> toslink> AES).

Why a DENON amp you would say?

For the past year, I have not been able to eliminate the problems of micro cuts encountered via Toslink between my CAMBRIDGE amplifier and my LG OLED (as well as with my NODE2I, but more occasionally). Changing and updating the optical card of my CAMBRIDGE did not solve the problem (as well as changing the sound card of my LG)
A test was done with a DENON AVR S650H amplifier (still via a Toslink link), and the problem was eliminated.
I therefore agreed with my seller to return my CAMBRIDGE for a credit.

My first idea was to go back to a HI-FI type amp like the DENON PMA-1600NE (Price 1590 €). But reading the very positive data available with the AVC-X3700H (Price 1147 €), I said to myself that this might be a better option (Toslink and HDMI connections, power, DAC)
Especially since its recent release would allow me, if necessary, to resell it better when I switch to Genelecs.
The AVC would only work in Stereo version, so I'm not worried about temperature issues.
Would you possibly have another option than these DENON amps in this price range to solve my micro-cuts problems (my salesman offers a large number of consumer brands like MARANTZ, NAD, NAIM, ROKSAN, ROTEL, TECHNICS, YAMAHA but of course, no professional brand like GENELEC)

Your help is welcome and I thank you in advance.

Thanks again to Amir.

What is a "micro cuts" problem? I have never hear such a thing and find it hard to believe it has to do with an amplifier that is supposed to just amplifier the input signal without altering it in anyway other than increasing the magnitude of it.

Based on specs, there is no reason to expect the PMA amp would "sound better" so if that is the goal then I would say safe the money. If it is because it can solve the micro cuts issue then again I don't know what it is and would therefore have no opinion.
 

Bernard 54

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What is a "micro cuts" problem? I have never hear such a thing and find it hard to believe it has to do with an amplifier that is supposed to just amplifier the input signal without altering it in anyway other than increasing the magnitude of it.

Based on specs, there is no reason to expect the PMA amp would "sound better" so if that is the goal then I would say safe the money. If it is because it can solve the micro cuts issue then again I don't know what it is and would therefore have no opinion.

Here is the link on the CAMBRIDGE website:
https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio....XA61-CXA81-TOSLINK-Optical-Input-and-TV-Issue
These are dropouts, glitches and disrupted audio signals
These problems have been mentioned on AVFORUM : https://www.avforums.com/threads/cambridge-audio-cxa81-optical-dropouts.2346563/
Unfortunately, this update did not fix my issue.
 

Andrius

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Thank you for the feedback but this is really weird, never heard anything like that before.

I did not expect that at all. I've read in other forums that sometimes transformer can be that loud if not tightened properly.
 

peng

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I did not expect that at all. I've read in other forums that sometimes transformer can be that loud if not tightened properly.

Yes that part is true, but if that is the reason then you should still get it replaced. Are you reluctant because of the shipping cost and the loss of use? Unfortunately if it is in fact a loose mount then it may get worse over time, and if you try to open the case to fix it yourself you may void the warranty so should probably check with the manufacturer first before doing it.
 
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bigguyca

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Yes that part is true, but if that is the reason then you should still get it replaced. Are you reluctant because of the shipping cost and the loss of use? Unfortunately if it is in fact a loose mount then it may get worse over time, and if you try to open the case to fix it yourself you will void the warranty.


You are offering legal advice here. Are you a lawyer and willing to standby your advice? I'm not a lawyer and not offering legal advice, but here is some insight into protections that may be available under U.S. or California law.

It appears that consumers in the U.S. have some protection from U.S. laws in the area of opening and servicing their equipment. Individuals should determine how and if this law applies to them.

We’re Afraid of Warranty Stickers, but Really, Manufacturers Should Be - iFixit

Miscellaneous related notes: In California, manufacturers have to pay for shipping both ways for warranty repairs. I've used this California law to obtain free shipping, but it takes some effort. Manufacturers often claim they don't know of the law.

According to California law, service parts have to be available for seven years per the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act.

California's Lemon Law helps protect pricey consumer electronics - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

Any of the above rights may be a hassle to enforce. It's best to pursue these rights, IMO, in "written" form, such as emails, where the manufacturer has to put their claims in writing.
 

peng

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You are offering legal advice here. Are you a lawyer and willing to standby your advice? I'm not a lawyer and not offering legal advice, but here is some insight into protections that may be available under U.S. or California law.

It appears that consumers in the U.S. have some protection from U.S. laws in the area of opening and servicing their equipment. Individuals should determine how and if this law applies to them.

We’re Afraid of Warranty Stickers, but Really, Manufacturers Should Be - iFixit

Miscellaneous related notes: In California, manufacturers have to pay for shipping both ways for warranty repairs. I've used this California law to obtain free shipping, but it takes some effort. Manufacturers often claim they don't know of the law.

According to California law, service parts have to be available for seven years per the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act.

California's Lemon Law helps protect pricey consumer electronics - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

Any of the above rights may be a hassle to enforce. It's best to pursue these rights, IMO, in "written" form, such as emails, where the manufacturer has to put their claims in writing.

I would never offer legal advice here even if I am a lawyer, and I am not. So good point, just edited my post, and thank you for bringing this up. I meant to share what I read before, something about doing a repair yourself would void the warranty and I really don't remember the specifics. So it is just a possibility but not always the case.
 

Artsfols

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Finally found the reason for all that noise! Found it by accident. Was reconnecting everything and when receiver was connected I had to lift it and move it a bit. And to my surprise the moment I lifted it that low frequency humming was gone. So it came out to be just resonance which resulted in this very annoying ~100Hz noise. When I tried powering receiver from different outlets around the house I've always put it on hard flat surface and that's why I didn't see any difference. So took some foam from original packaging and put it under the receiver and the problem was gone!

Here some measurements from my mobile. Used Sound Meter and Spectroid apps.

Receiver on hard surface:
View attachment 126336
View attachment 126337

On foam:
View attachment 126338
View attachment 126339
(in this pic some higher frequency noises were made by my wife)

Measurements were done by placing mobile on top of receiver. And now I cannot even see any changes in noise floor when receiver is on or off.

These measurements are not accurate but still captures the difference quite nicely.
Now just need to find more elegant solution than foam or at least cut it nicely not block any vents at the bottom.
Also I'm still interested if it's the chassis that resonates or just some separate parts inside. Either way I'm happy that I found the reason and can finally enjoy some late night movies without any additional annoying sounds.

My gut feel was 'external factor' and I won't say I told you so, but I'm very glad that's all it turned out to be.
 

McFly

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Can anyone confirm if this AVR would be suitable for a 2.0 (2.2 later) setup? Or does the downmixing bug strike it off the list?

My use case is primarily Netflix from a Sony x950h - which constantly sends 5.1 channels over optical to the integrated amp I'm currently using, and . Moving to an AVR would remove the need to keep changing that netflix audio setting to 2.0. Other benefits include ARC/CEC control and spotify connect, which we currently use a lot of but an AVR would have the advantage of volume control from the phone.

Perhaps better to find the X3600 - @amirm can you confirm if downmixing bug is present on the X3600?
 

Artsfols

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Can anyone confirm if this AVR would be suitable for a 2.0 (2.2 later) setup? Or does the downmixing bug strike it off the list?

My use case is primarily Netflix from a Sony x950h - which constantly sends 5.1 channels over optical to the integrated amp I'm currently using, and . Moving to an AVR would remove the need to keep changing that netflix audio setting to 2.0. Other benefits include ARC/CEC control and spotify connect, which we currently use a lot of but an AVR would have the advantage of volume control from the phone.

Perhaps better to find the X3600 - @amirm can you confirm if downmixing bug is present on the X3600?

I've gone through a similar transition with my Denon X3700H, only to a 3.1 system. I think you'll find eARC is going to work better for your Netflix app than the optical audio out.

What are you using for speakers at the moment? I would advise adding a center channel.

First of all, I don't use the center channel on my audio CDs. I find it obtrusive and does not image as well as having it off. In addition my Totem Arro's L+R speakers list at $2000 CDN a pair while the centre channel was $650 CDN, so not quite in the same league.

Totally different story on Netflix. I put on the 'Formula 1' series and with the center channel present, the voices are much clearer isolated on the center channel versus down mixing into stereo. And the sonal background is much more impressive. The 5.1 sound for that series has been engineered very carefully and really suffers when you downmix to stereo. The fact that the centre channel isn't at the level of the L+R does not matter because of how the center channel is being used. I mean we're talking badly recorded people talking while walking with race cars in the background. Lots of oomph, but it's not like hearing a Mozart violin concerto.

I have gone with the philosophy of trying to present the original source sound to the Denon receiver so that I can control the sound all in one spot.

I have not been affected by the downmixing bug, and to be honest, I don't have a thorough understanding of when or how it would come into play. I've been told by some people that it might affect me, and by others that it won't. So far, it hasn't and I've done lots of testing.

I could say more about the transition. After all I wrote 2000+ words on it, (link below). But hopefully this helps a bit. Happy to discuss this further though.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...he-denon-x3700h-avr-and-center-channel.22932/
 
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peng

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Can anyone confirm if this AVR would be suitable for a 2.0 (2.2 later) setup? Or does the downmixing bug strike it off the list?

My use case is primarily Netflix from a Sony x950h - which constantly sends 5.1 channels over optical to the integrated amp I'm currently using, and . Moving to an AVR would remove the need to keep changing that netflix audio setting to 2.0. Other benefits include ARC/CEC control and spotify connect, which we currently use a lot of but an AVR would have the advantage of volume control from the phone.

Perhaps better to find the X3600 - @amirm can you confirm if downmixing bug is present on the X3600?

I don't know if that so called downmix bug applies to other AVRs (non D+M) as well. We know about it because Amir tested it on the Denon, there is no guarantee if others will have the same or similar issues. Do you plan on playing multichannel contents such as 5.1, 7.1 etc., on your two channel system? Unless you do, you don't have to worry about it but I am sure you know that already.:D
 

Macfox

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Also, if I'm not mistaken, the original situation was with a 7.1 HDMI signal carrying only 2 active channels. Not sure what the resulting SINAD would be when receiving a 5.1 signal carrying 5.1 channels and playing back on 2 speakers. However, most sources also carry a stereo track and most playback devices have their own downmixing that might show better results if correctly implemented.
@amirm did Sound United ever report back on fixing the problem via software update?
 

Artsfols

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Also, if I'm not mistaken, the original situation was with a 7.1 HDMI signal carrying only 2 active channels. Not sure what the resulting SINAD would be when receiving a 5.1 signal carrying 5.1 channels and playing back on 2 speakers. However, most sources also carry a stereo track and most playback devices have their own downmixing that might show better results if correctly implemented.
@amirm did Sound United ever report back on fixing the problem via software update?

I take it that when a stereo source is sent through HDMI that this is not done by sending it as 5.1 with 3.1 blank channels. i.e. that there's a way to encode and wrap a stereo track. Most of my Apple TV streaming sources are stereo content, not 5.1, and the 3700H handles them with no issues.
 

Macfox

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Yes, that's usually how it works. However, I seem to recall that somehow Amir's pc sent a 7.1 HDMI signal with only 2 active channels (the other channels were active but were silent). This doesn't guarantee that the downmixing 'problem' doesn't occur when receiving 7.1 active channels, but it might have unexpected consequences in the receivers' processing.

Edit: I stand corrected. I reread the review and it seems the issue occurs whenever the receiver receives 8 channels while configured for two speakers. A solution might still be to let the source player downmix the channels. The receiver will then receive the appropriate number of channels without having to downmix.
Would still like to know whether Denon is working on a solution or perhaps already solved the issue.
 
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Artsfols

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Yes, that's usually how it works. However, I seem to recall that somehow Amir's pc sent a 7.1 HDMI signal with only 2 active channels (the other channels were active but were silent). This doesn't guarantee that the downmixing 'problem' doesn't occur when receiving 7.1 active channels, but it might have unexpected consequences in the receivers' processing.

Well, true enough. With my 3.1 system I wish there was an option to throw the surround channels away. (Maybe there is and I haven't found it yet). My streaming 5.1 sources - Netflix, Amazon Prime, et cetera, down mix to 3.1 just fine. But playing an older 5.1 DVD disc soundtrack (Emmylou Harris + Mark Knopfler to be exact), the surrounds contain a horrible echo-heavy track that completely ruins the L+R channels when mixed in. All that is required to correct is to switch the DVD player to the stereo LPCM track.
 

Artsfols

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Edit: I stand corrected. I reread the review and it seems the issue occurs whenever the receiver receives 8 channels while configured for two speakers. A solution might still be to let the source player downmix the channels. The receiver will then receive the appropriate number of channels without having to downmix.
Would still like to know whether Denon is working on a solution or perhaps already solved the issue.

As you noted, the question is how far you can extrapolate from the problem scenario. It seems like you're not going to encounter non-present channels when downmixing. The INFO button on the remote is extremely useful and I've noted on the input side, from the Apple TV box, you either receive 5.1 sound or stereo. (Excluding ATMOS and other proprietary formats).
 

amper42

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I don't know if that so called downmix bug applies to other AVRs (non D+M) as well. We know about it because Amir tested it on the Denon, there is no guarantee if others will have the same or similar issues. Do you plan on playing multichannel contents such as 5.1, 7.1 etc., on your two channel system? Unless you do, you don't have to worry about it but I am sure you know that already.:D

It would more than likely be a user mistake trying to play 5.1 or 7.1 on two channels. I have never experienced the reported down mixing bug. I think you would have to try really hard to find a scenario where it would occur in normal use. :p
 

Macfox

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Might be as easy as selecting bitstream passthrough on the player and having a default 5.1 Dolby Digital track. The receiver supports the codec, so it will be activated by default.
1. Connect Android TV box
2. Set audio output to 'Automatic' (player detects compatibility of 5.1 codecs)
3. Play any show on Netflix
4. Downmixing occurs
This can of course be fixed by manually selecting stereo output (system or source settings).
 

Atlantis089

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Hello, good news for the recognized problem of the hdmi 2.1 bug with 4k 120 hz and 8k

https://www.denon.com/fr-fr/hdmiadapter

A box will be made available free of charge by denon marantz to correct the problem. No precise information on the precise functioning of the box on the other hand.
 

MOCKBA

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This one made in Vietnam. I has nothing against Vietnam, but for Denon, I prefer units made in Japan.
 

Xcel

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The box is a bad joke IMO. Seeing that 2.1 is going to be primarily used for gaming, an extra box to convert the signal is going to add latency which is anathema to gamers. Beside that, adding an extra box and a wall wart is not cutting it either
 
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