Bello
Active Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2020
- Messages
- 126
- Likes
- 83
@amirm -Thank you for all you've done!
After reading all your reviews concerning the 2 channel phenomenon on the 4700H , and later a Denon work around 7.1 config w/ no fix / and or Denon update. During this time, I was researching the 4700H / 6700H.... After the long awaited Denon response (felt like forever) from your performance test results or lack of. Days before the 4th of July, I pulled the trigger on the 6700H. The Contributing factor for my purchase, beside spec was "made in Japan" vs Vietnam as the 4700H. In past years, I've worked on high end MF systems, Japanese technology / continue to date. Japanese almost put IBM to shame at one point in the multi-billion dollar Mainframe industry. I've closely worked with the Japanese, visiting the U.S for periods of time. They had always been floor-less, hardware implementation / design / and software in this multi-billion $ industry. All that said, I was greatly disappointed w/ denon (and yes, a different company but under the same Japanese corporate umbrella, another story) after your performance test of the 6700H. Added insult to injury, Denon fessed up with a swapped cap, (due-to-COVID supply shortage? ) out of spec, pre-amp- electrolytic capacitors? Yea it works? as tested, but totally out of spec at a $ premium cost? That was the kicker, done! This system will be heading back. For those of you who have followed @amirm, as he said the cap is located in the Pre-Amp side which means. There is no way around the bad signal, ether w/ External or internal amplification, same difference. I've now back tracked to the 4700H. I just received 4700H yesterday, and I'm going through the function / testing. Of cause, no test gear besides my eyes / ears. Few software switching glitches still apparent ( not a deal breaker) as in the 6700H, I'm certain across all X models too. Hopefully, software updates will evidently fix them? TBD
I'm also waiting for the August 5th recall list. BUT- Only for those who dial-in-to Denon? Ha! I'll need that in writing / not a verbal ya / nay, sorry!
Also- Amirm earlier you mentioned internal fans (not spinning) w/ running hot in the 4700H during extensive testing. You said, top RT side hot / no fan spin. Well, on the 4th of July, while NYC was exploding fireworks outside my home, I was boom testing my 6700H inside, w/ my SVS Ultra towers setup 7.1 / 13.1 quick setup. And yes, as you mentioned heat for the 4700 ~ 6700 was a bit hotter w/ the added 2 amps 11 in total. I was driving the 6700 @ 70-80-90% volume for a few hours. The units top middle front right was very hot. I'd say around 120-150 degrees (unit was staged on top of my console, cool, open air ) w/ 6700H temps climbing. Back end, GPU area cool but not in use. I noticed, internal fans were Not spinning ? The following day, I called Denon support. Escalated / response. And I quote, "the fans will only turn on when Amps reach a critical state of 160- 210 degrees." I believe the fans remain off due to added noise / distortion levels? + dust contamination, fans otherwise never turn on. Usual system killers, Heat + Dust................
So, lets say I have an 8K TV or 4K TV, and you're looking to upscale the video signal + / eARC return audio signal running a few hour movie. Now you have a GPU burning up the back end of the unit and the amps on fire in the front of the unit. Ummm- Marshmallow Smores anyone? I do, but not right now. Maybe after the movie or during for that matter. Huddle around the 6700 w/ marshmallows.
That said, for many years I've worked / designed high end SAN systems as a design SAN architect / SE engineer. With many years of hands on H/W in large complex data center environments. Based on my h/w experience, I believe the amplifiers will most likely survive, as do some low / mid end system CPU's running at 200-250 degree temps, mostly on air cooled heat sinks. I also believe the surrounding components, operating, close to the same oven temps, in a confined area will eventually fail, short out.
In conclusion: If you're replacing your system every few years, I'd say your safe. Unless your have your Denon AVR sandwiched between other components w/ little air flow. Then, I'd say your looking for trouble in more ways than one.
In my planning, I Pre-determined the over-all temperature issue, design layout, component confinement in the X systems. Especially 6700H, with the GPU just inches away (back end of the unit) from the ever so hot 11 AMP's. These 11 AMP's sitting on Two medium gauge heat sinks bolted together in series, front/back component area closely confined, inadequate ventilation, air movement. The reason for the added heat to front right side. I believe the Main LCR channels begin on the front right. Left side has less heat, driven FHS, RHS ect. The 8500H, overall better heat distribution, performance, component implementation, proportionate to over-all component layout (more space), efficient heat dispensation, inner area top to bottom for extracting heat from components, 2 larger gauged heat sinks, separated, across from each other, ect... From what I could see, 4700H has (2) smaller gauge, separate heat sinks both closely sandwiched together, front/back split 9 AMP's . I didn't care for the Op-panel ribbon cable crossed over the top of the heat sink, (4 cooling fins blocked) unlike the better designed 6700H, they ran the ribbon cable around somewhere away from the heat sinks. Wonder why? Talk about Marshmallow Smores? If so, the heat sink would most differently melt the ribbon cable sitting on top of the heat sink.
The feature that sold me on the X systems was the MODE "All AMP's OFF" using pre-amp MODE, perfect! External Amp feature. As we know, AMP MODE "ALL AMPS Off or NONE, or ALL AMPS ON"..... Fact, if (3) Pre Amp'd channels are used externally, the unused amps will still have current flow ~ continued power draw, added heat which is Not good. As far as shutting down all the amplifiers, I configured my Denon as a processor. It's running cool as a cucumber while also running video, driving it w/ 2600 W ~ 7 CHNL Emotiva AMP. And yes, an added cost factor. Far better than the 8500H route. In more ways then one. And boy does Denon / Emotiva / SVS combo kick axx. I also added the Zone 2 pre-outs to my old Yamaha AVR, home ceiling speakers, pre-wired throughout my home. All in all, XPA GEN3 -7 has proven to be extremely effective. I was sold at hello, once I spec'd it out, performance vs cost, incredible! As I mentioned, my SVS Ultra Towers / and surround need power ready, no shell games here concerning power processing to 7 channels +. As in the words of Capt. James T. Kirk. "Scotty, I need more power!!!" It's true!!! The 6700H in two channel drove the low end Towers fairly well (somewhat Impressive) but lost it in multichannel. I connected my XPA GEN3- 7, earth shattering sound with the help of SVS Ultra Towers and SVS surround setup. OMG!!! I was blown away in two channel, no sub included during my first sound test. Ran just as well, if not better in multi-channel test. On the other hand, my New 4700H @ 120W running 2 channel alone, fizzled. My Towers were yawning at max volume, it barely drove the 2 channel low end Altra Tower dual 8' drivers. Imagine multi channel setup? I didn't even try. NG period. The X6700H got there w/ little effort in 2 channel ONLY. But not multi-channel. Hence, the added Emotiva power for 7 channel output, 100% power ready, ALL THE TIME! I hooked up my X6700H w/ Emotiva, it performed flawlessly. Simply incredible sound and performance! As should the X4700H, when I get around to it later this week.
Amirm- The one question I have regarding your MAX " SINAD sensitivity 1.4v test" before clipping..... I checked Emotiva spec, it's rated at 1.5V sensitivity. Not sure if that is a major concern? Can you please comment as to my findings. If I get anywhere close to max 1.4V pre-amp output running my Emotiva, I believe the db level will be beyond the sound I could humanly handle. Emotiva is putting out 300W (2) channel stereo and a constant 275W multi-channel, all (7) channels driven @ 8 ohms. Not sure I'll ever get passed 1.4V or even close to the power output.
---
Moving on- "unlike 7.1, 5.1 or what ever one cares to setup. At the end, you have power distributing from a Denon processor, into multi channel system, redirected power, MS delay? distribution of power or most likely, lack of power. My thoughts on the matter of performance vs real value on your Denon and or expensive speaker setup is somewhat diminished, power bottle neck. Concerning power processing, multi-channel power distribution / lack of clean, ready power at the end.
After all said and done, I am running my system cool / clean as a cucumber. And last but not least, w/ the installation of an AC Infinity AIRPLATE S3 w/ supplied C.U. Yes, a bit of work, worth every drip of sweat and $ I installed it at the end. I added custom cut filters for incoming air, eliminating most dust.
Note- I have two fans filtered to avoid dust (positive air flow pressure into my console, air output through small door seams, no need for massive air flow, just cool moving air will suffice. Unless your stacking multiple hot units, I'm not) I Used (AC filters) 2 layers depending on the filter thickness / type. And of cause, you'll need to vacuum the filters from time to time.
The Emotiva generates much less heat, and certainly not in one spot. It has 7 large heat sinks + large heat sink for the power supply. Overall AMP design, impeccable! Even when driving all 7 AMP's. The thermal sensor from the AC infinity hanging over the top center, 1/4 inch off the unit. Cool to the touch. After several hours of music, movie play. The Emotiva has Not gone past 88 degrees . On the other end of my console, 6700H, same setup 2 filtered fans, incoming rear air attached to the same AC infinity C.U.. Heat tested 6700H, also cool as a cucumber, ALL AMPS OFF. And of cause, No warm or hot spots. I seriously drove the Emotiva / SVS setup to the point of my home having structural damage (just testing). The Ultra Towers need power ( it has lower, dual 8" drivers in each tower) beyond even the 6700 can throw at it in 2 channel. I was truly amazed of the over all Denon / Emotiva performance. Ultra's set to SMALL, all SVS speakers spec'd / crossovers Freq setup, 7.1 + LFE w/ PB-2000 Pro, incredible full band width sound, w/ clean unadulterated power distribution! As far as Denon's short comings, concerning down graded, electrolytic capacitor issue. The 6700H will most likely go back next week, just after a few more days of testing on the new 4700H.
As I said above, I'm still testing all the functions / main outputs, internal amps of the 4700H. After testing internal amps, I will hook-it-up to the beast "EMOTIVA" For my the all around final test. I'm hoping to pick a hot day where most people will head to the beach. Not at home...yikes, lol
I hope this helps someone out there still on the fence or concerned w/ the 4700H / 6700H. I'm sure they're many of you just reading along as I have all these months in horror.
Good luck and stay safe!
After reading all your reviews concerning the 2 channel phenomenon on the 4700H , and later a Denon work around 7.1 config w/ no fix / and or Denon update. During this time, I was researching the 4700H / 6700H.... After the long awaited Denon response (felt like forever) from your performance test results or lack of. Days before the 4th of July, I pulled the trigger on the 6700H. The Contributing factor for my purchase, beside spec was "made in Japan" vs Vietnam as the 4700H. In past years, I've worked on high end MF systems, Japanese technology / continue to date. Japanese almost put IBM to shame at one point in the multi-billion dollar Mainframe industry. I've closely worked with the Japanese, visiting the U.S for periods of time. They had always been floor-less, hardware implementation / design / and software in this multi-billion $ industry. All that said, I was greatly disappointed w/ denon (and yes, a different company but under the same Japanese corporate umbrella, another story) after your performance test of the 6700H. Added insult to injury, Denon fessed up with a swapped cap, (due-to-COVID supply shortage? ) out of spec, pre-amp- electrolytic capacitors? Yea it works? as tested, but totally out of spec at a $ premium cost? That was the kicker, done! This system will be heading back. For those of you who have followed @amirm, as he said the cap is located in the Pre-Amp side which means. There is no way around the bad signal, ether w/ External or internal amplification, same difference. I've now back tracked to the 4700H. I just received 4700H yesterday, and I'm going through the function / testing. Of cause, no test gear besides my eyes / ears. Few software switching glitches still apparent ( not a deal breaker) as in the 6700H, I'm certain across all X models too. Hopefully, software updates will evidently fix them? TBD
I'm also waiting for the August 5th recall list. BUT- Only for those who dial-in-to Denon? Ha! I'll need that in writing / not a verbal ya / nay, sorry!
Also- Amirm earlier you mentioned internal fans (not spinning) w/ running hot in the 4700H during extensive testing. You said, top RT side hot / no fan spin. Well, on the 4th of July, while NYC was exploding fireworks outside my home, I was boom testing my 6700H inside, w/ my SVS Ultra towers setup 7.1 / 13.1 quick setup. And yes, as you mentioned heat for the 4700 ~ 6700 was a bit hotter w/ the added 2 amps 11 in total. I was driving the 6700 @ 70-80-90% volume for a few hours. The units top middle front right was very hot. I'd say around 120-150 degrees (unit was staged on top of my console, cool, open air ) w/ 6700H temps climbing. Back end, GPU area cool but not in use. I noticed, internal fans were Not spinning ? The following day, I called Denon support. Escalated / response. And I quote, "the fans will only turn on when Amps reach a critical state of 160- 210 degrees." I believe the fans remain off due to added noise / distortion levels? + dust contamination, fans otherwise never turn on. Usual system killers, Heat + Dust................
So, lets say I have an 8K TV or 4K TV, and you're looking to upscale the video signal + / eARC return audio signal running a few hour movie. Now you have a GPU burning up the back end of the unit and the amps on fire in the front of the unit. Ummm- Marshmallow Smores anyone? I do, but not right now. Maybe after the movie or during for that matter. Huddle around the 6700 w/ marshmallows.
That said, for many years I've worked / designed high end SAN systems as a design SAN architect / SE engineer. With many years of hands on H/W in large complex data center environments. Based on my h/w experience, I believe the amplifiers will most likely survive, as do some low / mid end system CPU's running at 200-250 degree temps, mostly on air cooled heat sinks. I also believe the surrounding components, operating, close to the same oven temps, in a confined area will eventually fail, short out.
In conclusion: If you're replacing your system every few years, I'd say your safe. Unless your have your Denon AVR sandwiched between other components w/ little air flow. Then, I'd say your looking for trouble in more ways than one.
In my planning, I Pre-determined the over-all temperature issue, design layout, component confinement in the X systems. Especially 6700H, with the GPU just inches away (back end of the unit) from the ever so hot 11 AMP's. These 11 AMP's sitting on Two medium gauge heat sinks bolted together in series, front/back component area closely confined, inadequate ventilation, air movement. The reason for the added heat to front right side. I believe the Main LCR channels begin on the front right. Left side has less heat, driven FHS, RHS ect. The 8500H, overall better heat distribution, performance, component implementation, proportionate to over-all component layout (more space), efficient heat dispensation, inner area top to bottom for extracting heat from components, 2 larger gauged heat sinks, separated, across from each other, ect... From what I could see, 4700H has (2) smaller gauge, separate heat sinks both closely sandwiched together, front/back split 9 AMP's . I didn't care for the Op-panel ribbon cable crossed over the top of the heat sink, (4 cooling fins blocked) unlike the better designed 6700H, they ran the ribbon cable around somewhere away from the heat sinks. Wonder why? Talk about Marshmallow Smores? If so, the heat sink would most differently melt the ribbon cable sitting on top of the heat sink.
The feature that sold me on the X systems was the MODE "All AMP's OFF" using pre-amp MODE, perfect! External Amp feature. As we know, AMP MODE "ALL AMPS Off or NONE, or ALL AMPS ON"..... Fact, if (3) Pre Amp'd channels are used externally, the unused amps will still have current flow ~ continued power draw, added heat which is Not good. As far as shutting down all the amplifiers, I configured my Denon as a processor. It's running cool as a cucumber while also running video, driving it w/ 2600 W ~ 7 CHNL Emotiva AMP. And yes, an added cost factor. Far better than the 8500H route. In more ways then one. And boy does Denon / Emotiva / SVS combo kick axx. I also added the Zone 2 pre-outs to my old Yamaha AVR, home ceiling speakers, pre-wired throughout my home. All in all, XPA GEN3 -7 has proven to be extremely effective. I was sold at hello, once I spec'd it out, performance vs cost, incredible! As I mentioned, my SVS Ultra Towers / and surround need power ready, no shell games here concerning power processing to 7 channels +. As in the words of Capt. James T. Kirk. "Scotty, I need more power!!!" It's true!!! The 6700H in two channel drove the low end Towers fairly well (somewhat Impressive) but lost it in multichannel. I connected my XPA GEN3- 7, earth shattering sound with the help of SVS Ultra Towers and SVS surround setup. OMG!!! I was blown away in two channel, no sub included during my first sound test. Ran just as well, if not better in multi-channel test. On the other hand, my New 4700H @ 120W running 2 channel alone, fizzled. My Towers were yawning at max volume, it barely drove the 2 channel low end Altra Tower dual 8' drivers. Imagine multi channel setup? I didn't even try. NG period. The X6700H got there w/ little effort in 2 channel ONLY. But not multi-channel. Hence, the added Emotiva power for 7 channel output, 100% power ready, ALL THE TIME! I hooked up my X6700H w/ Emotiva, it performed flawlessly. Simply incredible sound and performance! As should the X4700H, when I get around to it later this week.
Amirm- The one question I have regarding your MAX " SINAD sensitivity 1.4v test" before clipping..... I checked Emotiva spec, it's rated at 1.5V sensitivity. Not sure if that is a major concern? Can you please comment as to my findings. If I get anywhere close to max 1.4V pre-amp output running my Emotiva, I believe the db level will be beyond the sound I could humanly handle. Emotiva is putting out 300W (2) channel stereo and a constant 275W multi-channel, all (7) channels driven @ 8 ohms. Not sure I'll ever get passed 1.4V or even close to the power output.
---
Moving on- "unlike 7.1, 5.1 or what ever one cares to setup. At the end, you have power distributing from a Denon processor, into multi channel system, redirected power, MS delay? distribution of power or most likely, lack of power. My thoughts on the matter of performance vs real value on your Denon and or expensive speaker setup is somewhat diminished, power bottle neck. Concerning power processing, multi-channel power distribution / lack of clean, ready power at the end.
After all said and done, I am running my system cool / clean as a cucumber. And last but not least, w/ the installation of an AC Infinity AIRPLATE S3 w/ supplied C.U. Yes, a bit of work, worth every drip of sweat and $ I installed it at the end. I added custom cut filters for incoming air, eliminating most dust.
Note- I have two fans filtered to avoid dust (positive air flow pressure into my console, air output through small door seams, no need for massive air flow, just cool moving air will suffice. Unless your stacking multiple hot units, I'm not) I Used (AC filters) 2 layers depending on the filter thickness / type. And of cause, you'll need to vacuum the filters from time to time.
The Emotiva generates much less heat, and certainly not in one spot. It has 7 large heat sinks + large heat sink for the power supply. Overall AMP design, impeccable! Even when driving all 7 AMP's. The thermal sensor from the AC infinity hanging over the top center, 1/4 inch off the unit. Cool to the touch. After several hours of music, movie play. The Emotiva has Not gone past 88 degrees . On the other end of my console, 6700H, same setup 2 filtered fans, incoming rear air attached to the same AC infinity C.U.. Heat tested 6700H, also cool as a cucumber, ALL AMPS OFF. And of cause, No warm or hot spots. I seriously drove the Emotiva / SVS setup to the point of my home having structural damage (just testing). The Ultra Towers need power ( it has lower, dual 8" drivers in each tower) beyond even the 6700 can throw at it in 2 channel. I was truly amazed of the over all Denon / Emotiva performance. Ultra's set to SMALL, all SVS speakers spec'd / crossovers Freq setup, 7.1 + LFE w/ PB-2000 Pro, incredible full band width sound, w/ clean unadulterated power distribution! As far as Denon's short comings, concerning down graded, electrolytic capacitor issue. The 6700H will most likely go back next week, just after a few more days of testing on the new 4700H.
As I said above, I'm still testing all the functions / main outputs, internal amps of the 4700H. After testing internal amps, I will hook-it-up to the beast "EMOTIVA" For my the all around final test. I'm hoping to pick a hot day where most people will head to the beach. Not at home...yikes, lol
I hope this helps someone out there still on the fence or concerned w/ the 4700H / 6700H. I'm sure they're many of you just reading along as I have all these months in horror.
Good luck and stay safe!