Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[peng]

My take on the video is that he did not have an error. He used simulation and then actual measurements showed that the results do appear to be excellent when measured, presumably on axis. However, the nature of an omni-directional mic is that it cannot differentiate between direct and indirect sound as we do. Matthew Poe's used listening window response as better indication of the perceived sound. I am not sure what software was used to measure the listening window.

It may be that a vendor of room EQ pursues flat measurements because it sells the product. None have after measurements, only predictive measurements.
Looking at the wave lengths above Schroeder and the size of the multi-measurements, I find the impulse response hard to fathom.

My take away is for bass, only multiple subs are effective for room mode issues. REQ can be used to tame room modes and as broadband tone-controls, but applied to correction is may cause problems not reflected by the measurements. Bias is a huge factor, since most believe the predictive charts and want to believe there is an improvement other than bass.

Folks should pay close attention to that video because the list of problems that could not be corrected by room EQ or PEQ is larger than those that it can correct

I did not find an improvement from Dirac on the XMC-1, I have just received the Dirac 3.0 kit for the RMC-1 and will test it again. The first try will be to set the curtain as close to 20 Hz as possible and compare it to Reference Stereo mode. I'd like to identify the cost, if any, as a baseline.

- Rich

I never even implied he had any error at all. I was simply saying I tried putting the mic all over the places (yes still within a bubble) and it did not reveal what he did but then as you said he used a simulator that he consider accurate and I simply did it by moving the mic. The averaging part seems to be the same, done with REW. He also used an expensive mic but I don't think that was the reason why he found the issues that I did not. I think the reasons are mainly due to the different measurement protocol and the software/simulator involved. As to whether the listening window he used is a better indication of the perceived sound I don't know, but he obviously know much better than I in choosing/defining the listening window so chance is good that his listening window is better than mine. For one thing, I did not use a protractor to measure the off axis angles, I just eyeballed them, for distances moved in the X-Y-Z directions, I did actually measure each, using the mmp as reference.

Regardless of how much we trust Mathew's technique and methodology (and I do in general..), I would like to see one or two more similar studies/experiments done by other knowledgeable individuals. I wonder if Amir can do that too, I bet he can because he likely has the software and equipment already.

 

[Chromatischism]

I never even implied he had any error at all. I was simply saying I tried putting the mic all over the places (yes still within a bubble) and it did not reveal what he did but then as you said he used a simulator that he consider accurate and I simply did it by moving the mic. The averaging part seems to be the same, done with REW. He also used an expensive mic but I don't think that was the reason why he found the issues that I did not. I think the reasons are mainly due to the different measurement protocol and the software/simulator involved. As to whether the listening window he used is a better indication of the perceived sound I don't know, but he obviously know much better than I in choosing/defining the listening window so chance is good that his listening window is better than mine. For one thing, I did not use a protractor to measure the off axis angles, I just eyeballed them, for distances moved in the X-Y-Z directions, I did actually measure each, using the mmp as reference.

Regardless of how much we trust Mathew's technique and methodology (and I do in general..), I would like to see one or two more similar studies/experiments done by other knowledgeable individuals. I wonder if Amir can do that too, I bet he can because he likely has the software and equipment already.

Matt measured the listening window of the speakers before and after, which is done outside. His experience has told him that Toole's research, showing that the listening window and early reflections dominate what we hear, is valid.

The problem comes down to what the omni mic is measuring. It's essentially correcting the wrong thing: the sum of the sound in the room. It's basically making the speakers worse in his example, due to bad input data.

Our ears and brain process sound differently. Future room EQ needs to get more sophisticated in that regard. They are already very good at EQ - they just need better information input into their systems.

So buy the best speakers you can and correct for the room up to 150-300 Hz depending on room size. My transition frequency comes out to around 275 Hz, but most larger rooms will be much lower.

 

[peng]

Matt measured the listening window of the speakers before and after, which is done outside. His experience has told him that Toole's research, showing that the listening window and early reflections dominate what we hear, is valid.

The problem comes down to what the omni mic is measuring. It's essentially correcting the wrong thing: the sum of the sound in the room. It's basically making the speakers worse in his example, due to bad input data.

Our ears and brain process sound differently. Future room EQ needs to get more sophisticated in that regard. They are already very good at EQ - they just need better information input into their systems.

So buy the best speakers you can and correct for the room up to 150-300 Hz depending on room size. My transition frequency comes out to around 275 Hz, but most larger rooms will be much lower.

So you mean he used the Omni mic with Audyssey? I missed that part then. I also measured my listening window's response (again, the window I picked was likely not the best, perhaps far from it...) before and after, and I always use the original flimsy mic that came with the AVR/AVP, and I did everything in the room.

 

[Chromatischism]

Well, that I am not sure of. I don't think there is a way to run Audyssey except with the included mic. However I don't think it matters since both are calibrated to a reference target.

 

[Gedeon]

Matt measured the listening window of the speakers before and after, which is done outside. His experience has told him that Toole's research, showing that the listening window and early reflections dominate what we hear, is valid.

The problem comes down to what the omni mic is measuring. It's essentially correcting the wrong thing: the sum of the sound in the room. It's basically making the speakers worse in his example, due to bad input data.

Our ears and brain process sound differently. Future room EQ needs to get more sophisticated in that regard. They are already very good at EQ - they just need better information input into their systems.

So buy the best speakers you can and correct for the room up to 150-300 Hz depending on room size. My transition frequency comes out to around 275 Hz, but most larger rooms will be much lower.

So, If I haven't understand wrong, that could be a problem with Dirac, Audyssey and most Room EQ ... ?

 

[Chromatischism]

So, If I haven't understand wrong, that could be a problem with Dirac, Audyssey and most Room EQ ... ?

Correct. Matt mentions Trinnov briefly, where a 3-headed mic is used to differentiate the reflections and is therefore a bit smarter. Still, we need to see further development in this area.

From this non-expert's point of view, I imagine the best system would be:

• Correction for the room up to the transition frequency. These systems are already very good at this.
• Correction for the speaker. User inputs anechoic speaker data file, just like a mic calibration file. We have been doing this in photography for a number of years, with lens correction profiles.
• The system should detect the transition cutoff automatically based on measurements and apply its room EQ up to that point, and the speaker calibration down to that point, in a sort of "crossover" between the two.

What do you guys think?

 

[theory]

Well, that I am not sure of. I don't think there is a way to run Audyssey except with the included mic. However I don't think it matters since both are calibrated to a reference target.

You have to use the mic that comes with Audyssey as I heard Audyssey compensates for the inaccuracy of the mic. If you use a different more accurate mic then Audyssey will add those compensations and make the more accurate mic inaccurate. Not sure how true this is.

 

[mcdull]

I’ll probably just leave a long hdmi cable out since I don’t have a rack for my current setup.

That's exactly what I'm doing when anyone want to hook up a laptop, phone or etc to the TV, so a front HDMI isn't that essential to me.

 

[KEW]

Thanks @amirm for the great review.

I have a 3700H configured in a vacation home in Maine, no AC.
It is in preamp mode and the right side is very warm. I cleaned the fans and move the fan to that side of the cabinet which helped a bit. I have a couple of Noctua USB fans on order that should be quieter and move more air. Cleaning the existing fans about doubled their output.
Hopefully, folks wont be using the internal fans much because they can get dusty...

Overall, I do feel the sound is improved over the old Onkyo TX-NR705 (also used as a preamp) but with the current weather, there are lots of fans blowing..

The startup time is a bit longer than the Onkyo, 10 seconds or so. The menus are complete and easy to use. I set the crossovers and that's about it.
I am happy with the purchase.

- Rich

So, are you going to get the app and give XT 32 a shot at the low frequencies to see what happens?
I would love to hear what you think!
I assume you have REW or equal so you can determine if the results are problematic?!

 

[Anterantz]

With today's technology, we should be able to measure things we can hear. I am not sure if Amir's test data set is inclusive enough but for what he did measure, the Denon AVR-X3700H scored higher in almost all categories, than the SR6014 and probably the Arcam AVR850 too. The SR6014 did slightly better in cross talk, that's about it.

I included the Marantz and Arcam because both have been mentioned as sounding better in this thread, subjectively of course. My comparison table would get too wide so I limited it to a few measurements that I think should be good indicator on how the duts compares in objective sound quality (if there is such a thing). And, I must emphasized that there could be mistakes and/or typos in my table, so if in any doubt please refer to the ASR reviews.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-sr6014-avr-review.14615/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/arcam-avr850-home-theater-avr-review.14039/

View attachment 76287

As for the warm sound, I thought there are two main factors that may have influence if the difference are significant enough:

- 2nd harmonic, or some believe the 3rd (iirc, as mentioned by N.Pass, that people prefer the 2nd or 3rd in roughly 50/50 ratio), but 2nd supposedly is the one that would contribute to warmth.
- Harmonic profile, i.e. contents of the harmonics, higher order ones are more offensive.
- Frequency response roll off in the high end.

So I guess we can look at the FFT for hints too right? Amir and other experts, please correct me if I am wrong on this. If we compare the FFTs of the AVR-X3700H and the SR6014, the 2nd and 3rd harmonics magnitudes are not that different between the two. In fact the Denon has more 2nd harmonics in proportion, so shouldn't it actually sound warmer?

Based on what I could see in Amir's measurements, It seems the only logical explanation for the warmer sound of the Marantz (if true, I don't think it is), would be the roll off that starts at 10 kHz -2.5 dB down at 20 kHz. But that would apply only if digital inputs are used!! Also, the earlier models such as AV8801, SR7010 and older didn't have such roll off, yet the so called "warm" sound talks were quite popular already. Or is it just something fake, but for whatever reasons, it got repeated enough times to make "true" over time?

FFTs, measured at speaker output:

View attachment 76286

hello peng i have had marantz and now denon and with the same boxes the marantz calmed the shiny tweets of my boxes much more. comparing the sr7013 versus 8500h to what stereo refers would be somewhat of a suicide since the 8500h is very good in stereo and cinema is amazing!

I have always heard that the 7200wa was more aggressive than this 8500h which has a more Marantz-like sound than there are that my tweets are now much smoother.


each brand has its seal do not tell me what factor makes it sound warmer but they are ... it's like yamaha has always been related to that in cinema they are unbeatable.

What I will never understand and with all due respect to low / medium range users is that by spending € 3,500 at the top of the range they bring a cardboard tripod and the same microphone as in the other ranges.


Denon / Marantz should give a little more reward to that sector that seeks a plus in their av, and a better eq, more powerful, some of us would value it more than an extra of channels and power.


I still think that nad, arcam are not better built than a denon / marantz or yamaha but its plus by including dirac makes the overall package outstanding.

 

[rvsixer]

Pre buy question for 3700h (or other x700H device) owners. Due to my upstairs loft getting quite hot after extended listening, especially in summer months even with the AC on, I'd like to be able to turn off the internal center/surround sound amps when listening to stereo music.

Is this configuration possible, from the manual it appears to be:
Multichannel mode = set "Amp Assign Mode" to "11.1" (mains powered by external amps, internal amps drive center/surrounds)
Stereo mode = set "Amp Assign Mode" to "Pre Amplifier" (mains powered by external amps, internal amps for center/surrounds are turned off)

Would room correction be affected? I am thinking not since the mains/sub settings would/should still be intact with the 11.1/Pre Amplifier assign mode change.

Thanks.

 

[Chromatischism]

Denon / Marantz should give a little more reward to that sector that seeks a plus in their av, and a better eq, more powerful, some of us would value it more than an extra of channels and power.

I agree that Audyssey should continue to evolve, taking into consideration the Harman / Toole research discussed here. But, I don't think Sound United AVRs need more stratification of EQ levels. I think 3 is more than enough.

 

[RichB]

So, are you going to get the app and give XT 32 a shot at the low frequencies to see what happens?
I would love to hear what you think!
I assume you have REW or equal so you can determine if the results are problematic?!

I bought the 3700H open box from my dealer. Unfortunately, the MIC box was empty so that options is out for this year since my vacation ends soon. A new MIC is being mailed but probably not in time.

- Rich

 

[Chromatischism]

Pre buy question for 3700h (or other x700H device) owners. Due to my upstairs loft getting quite hot after extended listening, especially in summer months even with the AC on, I'd like to be able to turn off the internal center/surround sound amps when listening to stereo music.

Is this configuration possible, from the manual it appears to be:
Multichannel mode = set "Amp Assign Mode" to "11.1" (mains powered by external amps, internal amps drive center/surrounds)
Stereo mode = set "Amp Assign Mode" to "Pre Amplifier" (mains powered by external amps, internal amps for center/surrounds are turned off)

Would room correction be affected? I am thinking not since the mains/sub settings would/should still be intact with the 11.1/Pre Amplifier assign mode change.

Thanks.

Preamp mode means ALL speakers are expected to be driven by external amps. The AVR is only going to provide voltage to the preouts. So yes, that should work. Audyssey just runs based on the current speaker configuration at the time you run it, so you would need to complete a calibration for each of your expected layouts and save them to your MultEQ app. In both cases I would enable ECO mode.

 

[theory]

I agree that Audyssey should continue to evolve, taking into consideration the Harman / Toole research discussed here. But, I don't think Sound United AVRs need more stratification of EQ levels. I think 3 is more than enough.

Isn’t the evolution of Audyssey up to Audyssey? I thought Denon just implements Audyssey in their AVRs.

 

[bigguyca]

I bought the traditional tan colored fans but with the new Amazon, they take a week to get here. Currently, I am pulling air out of the cabinet to reduce dust since I do not have dust covers. It seems to work better with the fan moved to the left side.

This is a vacation home and is using a last century Sunfire Cinema amplifier (200 WPC). It seems to be un-killable, even the amber light is still working. At some point, it will be replaced but in this environment the most important features are cool running and reliable. That is not that easy to find. Many newer devices, class-D or class-AB don't have 20 years under their belt. 3 AHB2s are overkill for this location.

- Rich

Hope this question applies to more that just Rich and myself. AHB2's are wonderful amplifiers.

While likely poorly stated the question really was overall what do you think of using one of these Denon AVR's to drive AHB2's? I've been using Marantz AVP's with AHB2's, but don't like Marantz's continued use of the non-standard reconstruction filters (and not giving a choice of filter) and HDAM's. The new AV7706 appears to have the same number of channels as the previous unit plus the filter and HDAM drawbacks, even if the HDAM's somehow are improved. Seems a DOA product.

Use of the RCA's would be a drawback, but voltage is voltage and the Denon's seem to put out 2V at least a cleanly, and like better, than the Marantz AV units. 2V minimum (much more would be preferred of course) is certainly a requirement for the AHB2's. An adapter from RCA to balanced cables close to the small signal source would provide some of the benefits of a pure balanced connection. Even Bill Whitlock seems to grudgingly agree with that.

 

[rvsixer]

Audyssey just runs based on the current speaker configuration at the time you run it, so you would need to complete a calibration for each of your expected layouts and save them to your MultEQ app.

The speaker layout would remain the same. No changes. Same LR and subs and locations for either HT or stereo listening.

For instance, not all movies are surround but stereo, does Denon really expect you to switch between the modes and change Audyssey/speaker layout to watch it? They could have left out AUTO mode then.

None of my other AVR's have required switching of the actual physical speaker layout to accommodate only which speakers are actually being used for the current input stream . I setup my 5.1 speakers, play xx.x sources the AVR does it, play stereo sources the AVR does it on the 5.1 setup in stereo just fine (using only LR and subs as expected). Yamaha YAPO also does not need adjusting, and still applies the expected LR and sub correction with either multichannel or stereo input.

Quite curious now ....

 

[Anterantz]

well I have a question that I can't find an answer ... I have a 5.2.4 setting for cinema and if we choose the stereo mode normally, only the front channels will sound, but if we enter the assignment we see that all the channels are active ... after a few hours, the avr heats up just and necessary.



So far so good, my question is why does it heat up the same way if I only play 2 channels as if using 5.2.4? The av is as hot after listening to an hour of music on 2 channels as if I had seen a movie in 5.2.4.



Doing a little research, I decided to make two presets one 5.2.4 for cinema and then run another stereo setup in 2.1 using the custom mode on the denon 8500h and turn off all the internal stages I wasn't planning to use and skip audyseey.



To my ears, it sounds much better this way, since audyseey focuses on calibrating just two speakers, but impressively the heat is the same as before ... this shouldn't be true if we're turning off all the internal stages, right?

 

[Darvis]

Also, the earlier models such as AV8801, SR7010 and older didn't have such roll off, yet the so called "warm" sound talks were quite popular already. Or is it just something fake, but for whatever reasons, it got repeated enough times to make "true" over time?

Indeed, good point. The psychoacoustics hypothesis (they sound warm because they're supposed to) has merit (and I love it because for once I'm in my area of expertise, which is refreshing in a sea of engineers). But what about distorsion? Could Marantz mimic the type of distorsion displayed by most tube amps that is perceived as "warm" and "musical"?

 

[amirm]

Amir,
A question for you:
If used as a preamp the Denon 3700 delivers a SINAD around 98dB at 2V. If you associate it with purifi-based power amps which can give SINAD in the range of 105dB, at which SINAD value will you end with the combo Denon+Purifi?
Thanks in advance for your answer

Well, I tried to test this scenario but failed completely.

Hooking up the output of 3700 to Purifi using RCA to XLR adapter generated worse results than the internal amps! Some of this I traced to increased ground loop. But even when I filtered this out, the Purifi still performed worse.

I then tested the Purifi using my Audio Precision unbalanced (RCA) outputs. To my surprise, its performance was worse than it was with balanced input. It was still much better than what I could do with 3700H though.

After an hour of messing with it, I gave up. It is possible there is ultrasonic noise from the 3700H DAC that is disturbing the Purifi amplifier (wild guess).

In abstract, you need to have the amp be 10 dB better to have it almost be transparent (0.5 dB loss in SINAD). In your scenario we don't have that so the SINAD will drop to around 96 to 97 dB (my guess).