Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[HarmonicTHD]

My teacher always told me, stupid question don't exist !?
So let's go,
Why is there so much different in the measurements comparing two brands of AVR with almost exactly the same components and building ?!
I mean, I read and see the Denon AVR is one of the best comparing to a lot of other brands. But most of the time inside are exactly the same DAC's. Gives the way they build it so much difference in SINAD ??
I am searching for a decent surround pre processor for a normal price. I know the DAC's are terrible inside most of the AVR's but I simply love the high-end Recordings in DTS-Master surround. And I have a lot of them on Blu-ray
For stereo and streaming I bought the smsl su-9 and really this dac is amazing. Thanks to this forum
I also miss Rotel on this forum, rsp-1570-1572,1576 looks really good to me

Contrary to often ill informed believe. It is mainly the engineering and therefore the PCB layout and not alone the components. So at this high SINAD level one has to be conscious about layout. Sticking more electronics and more amps into a very small space just adds to the possibility of slightly degraded SINAD.

However consider the audibility of these SINAD levels despite the slight differences.

 

[peng]

My teacher always told me, stupid question don't exist !?
So let's go,
Why is there so much different in the measurements comparing two brands of AVR with almost exactly the same components and building ?!
I mean, I read and see the Denon AVR is one of the best comparing to a lot of other brands. But most of the time inside are exactly the same DAC's. Gives the way they build it so much difference in SINAD ??
I am searching for a decent surround pre processor for a normal price. I know the DAC's are terrible inside most of the AVR's but I simply love the high-end Recordings in DTS-Master surround. And I have a lot of them on Blu-ray
For stereo and streaming I bought the smsl su-9 and really this dac is amazing. Thanks to this forum
I also miss Rotel on this forum, rsp-1570-1572,1576 looks really good to me

Denon and Marantz AVRs do use the same DAC ICs, the flagship models have the AK4490, then changed to the ES9010K2M due to the shortage after the AKM fire.
Yamaha flagships have the ES9026Pro and the midrange models have the ES9007 (same specs as the ES9006)
Onkyo, many do have the same AK4458 as Denon's and probably the AK4490 for the flagships.
Anthem, Arcam, NAD - recent models may have the AK4458 (again AK4490 for the top models) too but likely switched to something else such as the ES9010K2M after the AKM factory fire.

DAC is not the only IC, there are the important volume control chip that is the core of the preamp, and then at least one, two, or more opamp ICs in the preamp/dac signal paths.

So your assumption that "two brands of AVR with almost exactly the same components..." is not true, except for the Denon vs Marantz scenario.

And then, as others mentioned implementation could be very different between brands, though in my opinion it is not the main reasons for the difference in measured SINAD Relatively large scale AVR/AVP manufacturers such as Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Sony, NAD etc., have the engineering resource who should be familiar with the best practice in implementation of DACs. DAC chips manufacturers such as TI typically support their customers well on that matter too. It is not rocket science.

Chances are those who are willing to use the better DAC ICs such as the AK4458, 4490, ES9026 pro, PCM1795, DSD1795, volume control ICs and Opamp ICs would have no reason to not follow the best practice or manufacturers recommendations. So again, I agree implementation of the DACs could be a factor, but likely not the main reasons for the difference, parts and components, and wiring practice (physical layout, shielding, grounding etc.) likely account for the main reasons.

 

[gew55]

Denon and Marantz AVRs do use the same DAC ICs, the flagship models have the AK4490, then changed to the ES9010K2M due to the shortage after the AKM Fire.

Thanks for this exceptional explanation, help's a lot
But in the above you started mentioning the replacement of the 4490 to a ES9010. Does that mean the X3700 isn't that good anymore in SINAD ?! Or is the replacement DAC a better option !?
I can still get my hands on a X3700 with some discount, but not for long. Because they're al sold out here in the Netherlands. And actually the new coming X3800 is coming a lot more expensive and for me not worth the 500,- euro difference

 

[peng]

Thanks for this exceptional explanation, help's a lot
But in the above you started mentioning the replacement of the 4490 to a ES9010. Does that mean the X3700 isn't that good anymore in SINAD ?! Or is the replacement DAC a better option !?
I can still get my hands on a X3700 with some discount, but not for long. Because they're al sold out here in the Netherlands. And actually the new coming X3800 is coming a lot more expensive and for me not worth the 500,- euro difference

The AK4490 to ES9010K2M is for the AV8805A and AVR-X8500A. The X3700H appears to have gone from the AK4458 to the PCM5102A based on reports by a few members. example of such posts (there are many): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...w-denon-3700-4700-dac-chip.25521/#post-874974

From the measurements, there were little changes in SINAD, but at least the one with the ESS DAC has higher IMD (intermodulation distortions) though it is hard to tell if that's due to the DAC chip change.

There are no measurements of the lower model Denon AVRs such as the X3700H yet since the switch from the AK4458 to the alleged PCM5102S so we don't know what the SINAD for those units yet. Based on the data sheet of the DAC chops, the SINAD specs of the chips are:

AK4458 - 107 dB
PCM5102A - 93 dB

If "implementation", and all other chips in the signal path are same as the original version, then in theory the X3700H equipped with the PCM5102A should be able to achieve 93 dB SINAD though that would be the ideal case only. To know for sure, we need a member to send one to Amir for measurements.

 

[gew55]

AK4458 - 107 dB
PCM5102A - 93 dB

If "implementation", and all other chips in the signal path are same as the original version, then in theory the X3700H equipped with the PCM5102A should be able to achieve 93 dB SINAD though that would be the ideal case only. To know for sure, we need a member to send one to Amir for measurements.

The model Amirm measured was 98dB so in between. when the new 5102 also goes down with 9 dB it will end up at 84dB. That would not be very good though

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The model Amirm measured was 98dB so in between. when the new 5102 also goes down with 9 dB it will end up at 84dB. That would not be very good though

Yes you are right. If.

But audibility still might not be an issue.

 

[fieldcar]

Yes you are right. If.

But audibility still might not be an issue.

Yep. It's extremely unlikely to be audible.

I've never gotten beyond -39dB with my ER4XR's on the Klippel listening test. I can't get near that with speakers, as environmental noise and room reflections mask the distortion. I'd be happy with an AVR that puts out a SINAD of 50dB... and I have been in the past.

CLICK THIS LINK TO TAKE THE KLIPPEL LISTENING TEST:

Listening Test

www.klippel.de

 

[gew55]

Yes you are right. If.

But audibility still might not be an issue.

Yes i agree, but then we go to a different discussion !?
What's the point of these measurents !?
When it comes to listening you get a whole different kind of opinions.
And i doubt if the DENON ever wil be chosen

Measurement is the base of trust i would build on when it comes to signal processing

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yes i agree, but then we go to a different discussion !?
What's the point of these measurents !?
When it comes to listening you get a whole different kind of opinions.
And i doubt if the DENON ever wil be chosen

Measurement is the base of trust i would build on when it comes to signal processing

The point is to weed out the truly bad ones and especially the bad and overpriced ones and lastly to make an informed decision. Neither applies to the recent X3700.

Nobody saying what decision you should take. Just to inform that you won’t hear the difference.

Sure for peace of mind go maximum SINAD. As I personally did ((older X3700 in pre-amp only mode and ca 112dB SINAD power amps). But just because I did it doesn’t mean it is audible.

 

[gew55]

But just because I did it doesn’t mean it is audible.

With some nice speakers I think it must sound great

Thanks for all the information

 

[peng]

With some nice speakers I think it must sound great

Thanks for all the information

Even if the X3800H has the same PCM5102A, you should consider the other factors including the option to use Dirac Live, 4 independent subwoofer pre outs and the flexibility to use external amp for the LCR channels and internal amps for the surround and height channels, because it's preamp mode can be applied to individual channels. The X3700H's preamp mode is basically all or none.

 

[gew55]

Even if the X3800H has the same PCM5102A, you should consider the other factors including the option to use Dirac Live, 4 independent subwoofer pre outs and the flexibility to use external amp for the LCR channels and internal amps for the surround and height channels, because it's preamp mode can be applied to individual channels. The X3700H's preamp mode is basically all or none.

Oké
Those several advantages I didn't figure out yet. I knew about the dirac but with a difference of 500,-
Does it also has a be-amping setup ?
Different output assignable to main amplifier !?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Oké
Those several advantages I didn't figure out yet. I knew about the dirac but with a difference of 500,-
Does it also has a be-amping setup ?
Different output assignable to main amplifier !?

Most likely you can biamp the new one too. The X3700 you can. But see in the Reference Library here big Biamping article. Summary: passive biamping - pretty useless.

 

[gew55]

Most likely you can biamp the new one too. The X3700 you can. But see in the Reference Library here big Biamping article. Summary: passive biamping - pretty useless.

I know
But I got the 5 channel amp with good discount. So I use 2 channels for each front speaker. To connect it I need 4 pre-outs

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I know
But I got the 5 channel amp with good discount. So I use 2 channels for each front speaker. To connect it I need 4 pre-outs

What 5 channel amp. Sorry if I don’t remember all your previous posts. Is it an external amp?

If yes. I am not sure if one can use the pre-outs this way, meaning configuring 4 preouts to all play the mains signals. But I might be wrong. Either others know or you could check the online manual.

I was talking about the bi-amping possibility by using the built-in amps. That works for sure. Ask me how I know ;-). Was another foolish excursion before I knew better - but no harm done either as I wasn’t using all the built in amps anyhow.

 

[gew55]

What 5 channel amp. Sorry if I don’t remember all your previous posts. Is it an external amp?

If yes. I am not sure if one can use the pre-outs this way, meaning configuring 4 preouts to all play the mains signals. But I might be wrong. Either others know or you could check the online manual.

I was talking about the bi-amping possibility by using the built-in amps. That works for sure. Ask me how I know ;-). Was another foolish excursion before I knew better - but no harm done either as I wasn’t using all the built in amps anyhow.

Sorry I was reading the specifications from the x3800 and what Dirac can do for me.
Yes external 5 channel amplifier. I want to use the Denon as a pre processor without using the amps. But no I read that every 9 channels separately can be shut or activated. The height channel 1 and 2 are assignable speaker out. So I guess the cinch out height 1 and 2 are also assignable to a selected signal
I will look for a user manual

 

[gew55]

Have to wait for that one

 

[delta76]

x3800h is such a step up from x3700h, except for the power amp (which would be pretty small difference) it even bests x4700h. For less than 2000 eur it is no brainer except if one cannot wait.

One can just hope it will not be affected by the chip shortage and the price will eventually reduce.

 

[gew55]

x3800h is such a step up from x3700h, except for the power amp (which would be pretty small difference) it even bests x4700h. For less than 2000 eur it is no brainer except if one cannot wait.

One can just hope it will not be affected by the chip shortage and the price will eventually reduce.

Thanks, I thank you are right.
I will wait, I am always patient.
Because only then you make the right decisions.

 

[lexelot]

View attachment 233074
Have to wait for that one

Manual:

Connecting an external power amplifier AVR-X3800H

manuals.denon.com