Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[SirMaster]

Despite the perception and premium cost, Dirac is not much better than Audyssey XT32, and is in fact much worse when it comes to integrating subwoofers (with the exception of the Bass Control add-on, but they do different things). Neither do a good job of EQ above the bass region. Dirac lacks Dynamic EQ based on equal loudness, but has a better curve editor interface (but you won't use it if only applying EQ to the bass region).

My biggest gripe about Audyssey vs Dirac is that with Audyssey you are limited to the crappy little included mic.

I have a few of the Audyssey mics and I have compared them to each other and also compared them to my calibrated mic and all the Audyssey mics measure quite differently (multiple dB across the range) and none match my calibrated mic.

What’s the point in EQing to a target curve in Audyssey when the mic that’s measuring isn’t even capable of accurately measuring the frequency response of the speakers?

At least with Dirac I can use a quality calibrated mic that I can trust.

Why can’t Denon at least allow me to upload a simple text mic calibration curve into Audyssey? Surely that can’t be hard.

I suppose I could incorporate the mic calibration offset into the target curve for Audyssey, though for fine control I wound probably need to use the ratbuddy Audyssey tool.

 

[March Audio]

The test by @amirm with Purifi was a bit surprising. I did buy the Benchmark RCA to XLR cables that are start-quad with some special grounding to use with the Oppo UDP-205 in the event that my processor needs to ship out for an upgrade or repair. The system must keep running.

Here is the description from the Benchmark site:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/cables/products/benchmark-rca-to-xlrm-adapter-cable



2 Volts should be allow full output in the AHB2 high-gain mode. It is not something I can try because the 3700 is in Maine with me and my home is in Mass. It did not occur to me to bring an AHB2 here. If I can get up here in the fall, I'll bring one.

- Rich

I have had a few emails and questions regarding this result today

Some general comments, you shouldnt use a RCA to XLR adaptor like this.

Any noise currents flowing in the RCA screen will be seen by the amp. This is why we dont fit RCA inputs on our amps. You have to use a cable wired as below.

Fig 3 from Hypex guidence notes

With this configuration the XLR screen is terminated at the far RCA source end. Noise currents flow in the shield wire and not the signal conductors eliminating ground loop based noise issues. Our RCA to XLR cables are configured this way as are the mentioned Benchmark ones.

Secondly it should be noted the Hypex/Purifi speaker outputs are ground referenced. As such from a measurement perspective it is possible to get noise problems and the AP balanced input should have the same cable config as shown above to again make sure ground currents flow in the shield and not the signal conductors.

We often use (as do our customers) RCA single ended sources with our Hypex and Purifi amps and dont hear or measure any noise issues.

 

[peng]

My biggest gripe about Audyssey vs Dirac is that with Audyssey you are limited to the crappy little included mic.

I have a few of the Audyssey mics and I have compared them to each other and also compared them to my calibrated mic and all the Audyssey mics measure quite differently (multiple dB across the range) and none match my calibrated mic.

What’s the point in EQing to a target curve in Audyssey when the mic that’s measuring isn’t even capable of accurately measuring the frequency response of the speakers?

At least with Dirac I can use a quality calibrated mic that I can trust.

Why can’t Denon at least allow me to upload a simple text mic calibration curve into Audyssey? Surely that can’t be hard.

I suppose I could incorporate the mic calibration offset into the target curve for Audyssey, though for fine control I wound probably need to use the ratbuddy Audyssey tool.

In the Denon and Audyssey's You-tube video on Audyssey, the Audyssey gentleman explained why, sort of anyway. I don't have the link right now but someone posted it on ASR somewhere before. Based on their explanation the mic is somehow quite accurate for the specific job, so as long as the same model number ones are used (they are the same between some models but may be different for some others iirc) you shouldn't get multiple dB difference. Also if I understood right, if you use your own calibrated mic the result obtained would be incorrect. There is also an Ask Audyssey thread on this topic:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212345183-Mics

If you have tried different Audyssey mics, and get much different results then I would suggest you check the number of the mics to see if they are the same.

I know the mic for my AVR-4308CI is different than my AVR-X4400H but my Marantz AV8801's mic appears to be the same so now that you got me curious, I am going to re-run Audyssey using the AV8801's mic and see what happens after, if there is even a couple dB different, I am sure REW/Umik-1 mic would pick that up.

 

[peng]

I bought the 3700H open box from my dealer. Unfortunately, the MIC box was empty so that options is out for this year since my vacation ends soon. A new MIC is being mailed but probably not in time.

- Rich

By the way, what speakers are you using the 3700 with?

 

[RichB]

By the way, what speakers are you using the 3700 with?

Revel M20's and C20.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-performa-m20-loudspeaker-measurements

he speaker's impedance was assessed using an Audio Precision System One; the results are shown in fig.1, with the tweeter-level control set to its maximum and minimum positions. The lowest impedance is with the control set to "+1," in which case the minimum magnitude is 4 ohms between 2 and 3kHz. The electrical phase angle varies quite considerably, with a worst-case combination of 5.9 ohms and 42 degrees capacitive angle occurring at 100Hz. Good 4-ohm-rated amplifiers will work best with this speaker.

The 3700 in preamp mode is connected to a Sunfire Cinema Grand amplifier.

Years ago, I had a Cinema Grand Signature (400 WPC) driving the Salon1s and it sounded good but my friend brought over an Outlaw 7200 which I liked better. It seems more dynamic. Even the M2200 sounded better. I later remembered that I had plugged the Sunfire into a Panamax power conditioner "AMP" outlet. When moved to the wall, it was much improved.

Since then, all amps a plugged directly into the wall and I now have 3 x 20 amp plugs and a 15 amp plug, vestiges of the AT6000 amps which had two power cords each. There is no need for any of that with the AHB2s but there is no doubt that wall current is not an issue

- Rich

 

[SirMaster]

In the Denon and Audyssey's You-tube video on Audyssey, the Audyssey gentleman explained why, sort of anyway. I don't have the link right now but someone posted it on ASR somewhere before. Based on their explanation the mic is somehow quite accurate for the specific job, so as long as the same model number ones are used (they are the same between some models but may be different for some others iirc) you shouldn't get multiple dB difference. Also if I understood right, if you use your own calibrated mic the result obtained would be incorrect. There is also an Ask Audyssey thread on this topic:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212345183-Mics

If you have tried different Audyssey mics, and get much different results then I would suggest you check the number of the mics to see if they are the same.

I know the mic for my AVR-4308CI is different than my AVR-X4400H but my Marantz AV8801's mic appears to be the same so now that you got me curious, I am going to re-run Audyssey using the AV8801's mic and see what happens after, if there is even a couple dB different, I am sure REW/Umik-1 mic would pick that up.

That’s what I’m saying.

I have multiple of the same model Audyssey mic and I have measured them all in REW against each other and they do not measure the same and are multiple dB difference from each other in some frequencies

I am not the only one who has noticed this, so have others over at AVS Forum Audyssey thread.

The only way to get true accurate measurements would be to use an individually calibrated mic that has been calibrated against a reference mic and a mic that is of good enough quality.

These cheap Audyssey mics are simply not that in my experience.

 

[Bentley]

FYI, I am packing and shipping this unit today so that I can get on with other testing. And the owner can have it back to enjoy.

Hi will you be testing the 8500 next ?

 

[Chromatischism]

That’s what I’m saying.

I have multiple of the same model Audyssey mic and I have measured them all in REW against each other and they do not measure the same and are multiple dB difference from each other in some frequencies

I am not the only one who has noticed this, so have others over at AVS Forum Audyssey thread.

The only way to get true accurate measurements would be to use an individually calibrated mic that has been calibrated against a reference mic and a mic that is of good enough quality.

These cheap Audyssey mics are simply not that in my experience.

The Audyssey mics are calibrated against a reference mic though - the AVRs know the correction profile. So while there is a QC tolerance, the difference is probably split by the AVR. It's the best we're going to get.

It would be great if the next version of Audyssey had a USB mic input and the app let us load the profile.

 

[kevindd992002]

Are there any caveats when choosing the X3700H over the X3600H? I'm planning on a 5.1.2 beginner setup initially but really want the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so I have no choice but to go with the Denon 9.2 AVR's.

Does the 3600 run colder than the 3700? I will be using the AVR in a tropical country so this is a real concern for me. Also, what happens to the 3700 when it heats up anyway? Does it degrade itself in terms of performance to compensate for the heat or something?

 

[Atlantis089]

Are there any caveats when choosing the X3700H over the X3600H? I'm planning on a 5.1.2 beginner setup initially but really want the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so I have no choice but to go with the Denon 9.2 AVR's.

Does the 3600 run colder than the 3700? I will be using the AVR in a tropical country so this is a real concern for me. Also, what happens to the 3700 when it heats up anyway? Does it degrade itself in terms of performance to compensate for the heat or something?

the avr denon, whether 3600 or 3700 heaters For a tropical environment, you will need to put a system to extract the heat and make it come out either in front or behind. Temperatures do not affect performance per se, but above all on the longevity of the AVR and increase the risk of failure. However, do not forget that in a pc, the chips and components are designed to withstand very high heat. However, a device as sensitive as an avr will be less resistant. You should ask to Amrir for the temperatures, because on the 3700 a probe was used, not on the 3600.

 

[theory]

Are there any caveats when choosing the X3700H over the X3600H? I'm planning on a 5.1.2 beginner setup initially but really want the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so I have no choice but to go with the Denon 9.2 AVR's.

Does the 3600 run colder than the 3700? I will be using the AVR in a tropical country so this is a real concern for me. Also, what happens to the 3700 when it heats up anyway? Does it degrade itself in terms of performance to compensate for the heat or something?

Probably really comes down to features you want and ultimately the final price between the two you are able to get for either unit.

 

[kevindd992002]

the avr denon, whether 3600 or 3700 heaters For a tropical environment, you will need to put a system to extract the heat and make it come out either in front or behind. Temperatures do not affect performance per se, but above all on the longevity of the AVR and increase the risk of failure. However, do not forget that in a pc, the chips and components are designed to withstand very high heat. However, a device as sensitive as an avr will be less resistant. You should ask to Amrir for the temperatures, because on the 3700 a probe was used, not on the 3600.

That's what I thought. I mean, I'm used to handling pc components and cpu/gpu's are really tough in terms of temps.

@amirm any thoughts on the 3600 temps?

 

[kevindd992002]

Probably really comes down to features you want and ultimately the final price between the two you are able to get for either unit.

They have more or less the same features, right? Is there any performance degradation in the 3700?

 

[Trdat]

Perhaps its just the IMINT analyst and geopolitics researcher in me that enjoys a little deep rooted internal politics in the industry. But hopefully I am not the only one who can see that Audioholics is going to be furious to find out that Denon and Amir have been in contact with each other.

I am sure Gene is regretting the word "Website" when he referred to ASR. Including his rude replies and cheap shots.

Ultimately, I still like Audioholics and I am sure Gene just went the wrong way about it. Plus Mathew Poes is a delightful character who replies to every post on YouTube and every single email regardless of worth and length. Argues very rationally, without ego and most importantly is doing it for the industry and for the greater good not for himself.

 

[amirm]

Hi will you be testing the 8500 next ?

It is the next AVR yes, but not the next review. It will be done in a week or so. It takes forever to measure these devices. And then I have to send them to Denon, wait for answer, document and post review. Owner needs it by end of next week though so one way or the other, it will get done.

 

[amirm]

@amirm any thoughts on the 3600 temps?

My memory doesn't go back that far. But fortunately the site does. From my review:

FYI I am in discussions with Denon/Marantz folks about thermal issues. They like to investigate what I have reported. I am asking them to lower the threshold for the fans to come on. Will see if they go for it.

 

[amirm]

Also, what happens to the 3700 when it heats up anyway? Does it degrade itself in terms of performance to compensate for the heat or something?

It keeps working so no failures or issues observed. We are just concerned about long term reliability. If you don't need a lot of power, turn on the ECO mode. It is on the remote so you can turn it off if you are watching something loud. Or put in Auto where it turns on by itself if you increase the volume.

 

[theory]

Also, what happens to the 3700 when it heats up anyway? Does it degrade itself in terms of performance to compensate for the heat or something?

Heat is the bane to any electronics in the long run (could be shorter if things get super hot). That’s why computers have so many fans going. Same for server racks. People tend to like to get some external cooling when they feel it’s needed.

 

[valerianf]

MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) calculation for Electronics is halved every 10°C increase in temperature.
It would be nice that Denon lower the polarization currents in their power amplifier design.
Greater is the number of amplifiers packed in the same enclosure size lower is the resulting reliability.
It is why the Denon 3700h is the only one I may buy.
I hope that Amir will measure the temperature of other competitors (Yamaha, Onkyo...) hdmi 2.1 AVRs.
Usually I keep an AVR 10 years without any issue.

 

[Bello]

My memory doesn't go back that far. But fortunately the site does. From my review:

View attachment 76705

FYI I am in discussions with Denon/Marantz folks about thermal issues. They like to investigate what I have reported. I am asking them to lower the threshold for the fans to come on. Will see if they go for it.

Is it possible Denon has the thermal threshold set to higher temps (no fan spin) so not to introduce electrical noise? / added audio distortion from spinning fans? and or dust contamination to components. As I earlier mentioned, Denon responded back as to my heat concern. Response regarding the fans only spin up when the AMPS reach a critical state 160 - 210 degrees. I believe Denon's extensive thermal testing during design / build, Denon accepted to hover around 150 - 160 degrees (hot, no fan spin) temps fully operational during semi heavy use. I believe these measurements are well thought out during design test bench burn-in. Likely, tests are open air operating temps. Not closed-up in a cabinet. If you notice, all of there system marketing displays are always sitting on top (open air) of consoles never inside...