Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

[peng]

Benchmark provides power into load numbers, maximum amps, and voltage gain, though not into phase angles.
The maximum voltage gain is interesting because that can be the limiting factor where the impedance is very high.

The Revel F228Bes are rated at 90 dB efficiency but have impedance that dips below 4 Ohms at 100 Hz and 12 Ohms at 2 kHz.
In one area an amp could run out of current and in the mid-range, run out of voltage.
View attachment 118943

If looking at WPC at 8 Ohms, an AVR could be over 100 WPC and so would the AHB2.
At 4 Ohms, the AHB2 almost doubles to 180 WPC whereas the AVR will drop (as in your example) to 60 WPC.
The immediate results is reduced bass. With the F228Be that would mean a drop in output between 80 and 200 Hz.

The ASR measurements seem better at low volume than those found in Sound and Vision.

- Rich

You are right! Benchmark's AHB2 specifications are the best I have seen, but I might have missed some obviously.
The info they provided does allow me to calculate the rated current under each condition they specified, except as you mentioned, they still ignore the important phase angle part that could be an important factor for certain speakers.

Other than that, the only thing wrong is just technical, that as I mentioned before it is incorrect to use the term "watt" for any load other than resistors.

One thing they can do though, is to provide the "duration" for the rated current (actually "power", the way they are doing it).
That's because we both know those numbers are not really for "continuous" in literal sense.

I am not saying there is practical value in a real "continuous" rating that some super expensive gear are rated for, such as certain models of the likes of Krell, Bryston and may be McIntosh etc., not for most home users anyway. Just that it would be great to see rating such as:

100 W, 8 Ohm load, 60 minutes minimum, at room temperature, adequately ventilated per manufacturer's recommendations (this is sort of cya..)
190 W, 4 Ohm load, 30 minutes minimum...............................................................................................................................................................................................................

With a warning note: For <8 Ohm speakers with average phase angle >35 degrees in the range 20-300 Hz, reduce duration by 50%, that's just an arbitrary example.

Such additional information will likely be useless for a lot of people, but for a $3,000 100 W amp I think they worth it to people who truly care about specifications.

 

[peng]

Don't kn="peng, post: 712876, member: 7644"]I think they may be adequate protection for premature damage due to overheating from not having adequate natural ventilation. Denon is vague about what is good ventilation. In the manual they only advised "Please re-install this unit in a place having good ventilation."

The build in fans appeared to have been factory set to turn on when the heatsink temperature is so high that the unit may be allowed to run hot enough to shorten its life without the fans ever reach the set point. That is just based on my educated guess, having measured how "warm" the unit could get by shooting my infrared temperature gun onto the warmest spot on top and inside of the enclosure that the light beam could reach. So to me, an external fan is for longevity reason if nothing else.

Don't know why they don't allow manual control, like on lowest rpm whilst on and 20 mins after putting into standby[/QUOTE]

Cost!

 

[RichB]

You are right! Benchmark's AHB2 specifications are the best I have seen, but I might have missed some obviously.
The info they provided does allow me to calculate the rated current under each condition they specified, except as you mentioned, they still ignore the important phase angle part that could be an important factor for certain speakers.

Other than that, the only thing wrong is just technical, that as I mentioned before it is incorrect to use the term "watt" for any load other than resistors.

One thing they can do though, is to provide the "duration" for the rated current (actually "power", the way they are doing it).
That's because we both know those numbers are not really for "continuous" in literal sense.

I am not saying there is practical value in a real "continuous" rating that some super expensive gear are rated for, such as certain models of the likes of Krell, Bryston and may be McIntosh etc., not for most home users anyway. Just that it would be great to see rating such as:

100 W, 8 Ohm load, 60 minutes minimum, at room temperature, adequately ventilated per manufacturer's recommendations (this is sort of cya..)
190 W, 4 Ohm load, 30 minutes minimum...............................................................................................................................................................................................................

With a warning note: For <8 Ohm speakers with average phase angle >35 degrees in the range 20-300 Hz, reduce duration by 50%, that's just an arbitrary example.

Such additional information will likely be useless for a lot of people, but for a $3,000 100 W amp I think they worth it to people who truly care about specifications.

Duration would be fine. @John_Siau has posted on @ASR concerning the effective load created by phase angles.
If you think that an amp with a regulated supply may not standup to continuous load, than this is even more true for AVR amps.

On the first page, you can see the AHB2 has the similar power measured to the 3600.
That is not close to indicative of what will happen if you drive a typical nominal 8 at 6 Ohms speaker that may dip below 4 Ohms and have high phase angles. There is little capacitance compared to stand-alone linear (unregulated) power supply class A/B amps and there will be a real-world impact.
Perhaps, stand-alone amps are overbuilt, that would be the argument.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

@peng, I found the post by John Siau concerning phase angles:

Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp | Page 18 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

From the amplifiers perspective, -45 degrees at 4 Ohms is equivalent to driving a 2.8-Ohm resistive load. This can be driven to full output voltage in stereo mode or in mono mode.

-50 degrees at 4.1 Ohms is equivalent to driving a 2.6-Ohm resistive load. This can be driven to full output voltage in stereo mode and can be driven to within 0.1 dB of full output in mono mode without flashing the TEMP lights. Even in mono mode, it would be virtually impossible to trip the protection with music although it could be done with a 100 Hz sinusoidal test tone if it was played at, or slightly above, full power for a few seconds.

One unique characteristic of the AHB2 is that the power supply rails are tightly regulated. In contrast, virtually all other amplifiers use unregulated power supplies. This means that the DC rails sag in a conventional amplifier when the amplifier is driving a difficult load. With the AHB2 the rails maintain their voltage and the amplifier continues to deliver nearly the same rail-to-rail voltage swing. This can be seen from the fact that the AHB2 delivers almost exactly twice the power into 4 Ohms as into 8 Ohms. It is also why we get a near 4:1 increase in power when running in bridged mono.

I support measuring AVR amplifiers into 3 Ohm resistive loads.
Do linear powers supplies sag when driving speakers with repeated bass notes below the power exhaustion?
That is an interesting question.

My point is watts at 6 Ohms is not sufficient to determine efficacy. The speaker load, the room, and desired listening levels come into play.

- Rich

 

[peng]

@peng, I found the post by John Siau concerning phase angles:

Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp | Page 18 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum



I support measuring AVR amplifiers into 3 Ohm resistive loads.
Do linear powers supplies sag when driving speakers with repeated bass notes below the power exhaustion?
That is an interesting question.

My point is watts at 6 Ohms is not sufficient to determine efficacy. The speaker load, the room, and desired listening levels come into play.

- Rich

He's most likely talking about from "heat" standpoint, by using the power factor at the specific phase angle to calculate the equivalent current. If so it is not exactly the same but yes good enough for me (as sort of an equivalency) if the manufacturer includes the 3 Ohm rating. And yes in that case Benchmark got it cover because they provided info for the 2 Ohm condition. Still need info on duration, just so the likes of NAD, Yamaha, even D+M can get away with it so easily, but saying "continuous" when they are likely refer to FTC's 5 minutes at best, and less (like just the so called "continuous sine wave", i.e. not pulse) at worst.

 

[Matt0305]

Cool. So, what would be the size of such an amp be? And the minimum cost? I don't mind trying if it's cheap enough and yet an audible improvement.

I'm shopping around the new and used market, but right now Emotiva's BasX A-300 is looking compelling at $399 and 300 watts rms into 4 ohms

 

[Matt S]

After endless back and forth between this and and an SHD, I finally found a 3600 and am looking forward to it turning up this week.

I've bounced in and out of this thread over the past few months. Thanks to Amir for the initial test and to a large number of you for some of the detailed info which followed. I cannot wait to play.

 

[Matt S]

Hi All. Just a quick question regarding the Multeq app. I recently purchased a 3600 and it runs through the Audyssey setup just fine in the amplifier but, when trying to use the app, it freezes at Subwoofer Volume. I've tried wired and Ethernrt connection etc and the same thing happens. I've reinstalled the software on my phone too.

Anyone experience something similar??

 

[Propheticus]

There's been pages full of people posting issues with the app. One tip that is often shared is configuring the amp to use a fixed IP address instead of dynamic/DHCP.
Many (modem/)routers also allow you to reserve addresses for specific devices (by MAC), this can prevent conflicts when the amp keeps using the fixed IP while the router tries to assign it to another device after the lease expires.

I've experienced issues during measurements as well where the connection was lost after the second or third speaker. I eventually ended up doing a full power cycle on the amplifier (unplug power cord for a few seconds) after which the measurement did finish successfully. So, because it's like a computer of sorts: "Hello IT, have you tried turning it off and on again?"

 

[Matt S]

I've had those issues with my prior amp. This seems a little different. The static IP address isn't working either. I'll try to see if I can run it from BlueStacks. Annoying.

 

[peng]

I've had those issues with my prior amp. This seems a little different. The static IP address isn't working either. I'll try to see if I can run it from BlueStacks. Annoying.

If the mobile device you are using is one of the compatible device D+M listed then you should not have such issue, unless there is something wrong with your unit. If you email customer support you should get an answer within a few days. Worst case you should be able to get your $20 refunded.

 

[rccarguy]

There's been pages full of people posting issues with the app. One tip that is often shared is configuring the amp to use a fixed IP address instead of dynamic/DHCP.
Many (modem/)routers also allow you to reserve addresses for specific devices (by MAC), this can prevent conflicts when the amp keeps using the fixed IP while the router tries to assign it to another device after the lease expires.

I've experienced issues during measurements as well where the connection was lost after the second or third speaker. I eventually ended up doing a full power cycle on the amplifier (unplug power cord for a few seconds) after which the measurement did finish successfully. So, because it's like a computer of sorts: "Hello IT, have you tried turning it off and on again?"

I had similar issues with squeezebox and accessing Nas with Lms. Sorted after setting static ip for the Nas and squeezebox es

 

[Matt S]

If the mobile device you are using is one of the compatible device D+M listed then you should not have such issue, unless there is something wrong with your unit. If you email customer support you should get an answer within a few days. Worst case you should be able to get your $20 refunded.

App worked fine with prior Marantz. Meant to be compatible with 3600. Same phone. A little odd so I shall contact Denon.

 

[Matt S]

I had similar issues with squeezebox and accessing Nas with Lms. Sorted after setting static ip for the Nas and squeezebox es

Tried and failed unfortunately.

 

[Matt0305]

You might try a factory reset of your AVR. I haven't had any issues with my 3600, but I did with another Denon AVR and a factory reset resolved the issue.

 

[Matt S]

Thanks all. Looked like re-setting everything and a static IP works. Yes- finally XT32 bliss!

 

[preload]

I’m getting a horrible 60Hz buzzing noise when I connect the Kef LSX speakers to the lineout of the 3600H. Anyone else having a similar issue?

 

[Beershaun]

I’m getting a horrible 60Hz buzzing noise when I connect the Kef LSX speakers to the lineout of the 3600H. Anyone else having a similar issue?

Ground loop.

 

[milosz]

I’m getting a horrible 60Hz buzzing noise when I connect the Kef LSX speakers to the lineout of the 3600H. Anyone else having a similar issue?

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/content/entry/11485/getting-rid-of-audio-ground-loops

 

[preload]

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/content/entry/11485/getting-rid-of-audio-ground-loops

Strange thing is that the 3600H isn't grounded to the wall. It has a 2 prong plug. How can a ground loop still form?