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Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

GXAlan

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Since home theater is specified for 85dB average with 105 dB peaks, you could argue that a SINAD of 85 is plenty and for full transparency for a premium setup, 105 dB.
 

John Galt

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It is easy to focus on SINAD because it is a simple number. It is important that the limits of usefulness have been discussed quite a lot in many discussions. I think the key takeaway in such discussions stated by Amir in another discussion (link) is his description of the usefulness of SINAD and its limitations:
"A few points. Whether someone can detect non-linear distortion is highly depends on perception qualities of the listener. In testing lossy compression for example, we know that trained listeners do a ton better than non-trained. So this is not a static number.

On why measure, in every case I show SINAD it is accompanied with FFT. It is the FFT that is instructive of whether the distortions can be audible. I realize people mostly focus on the SINAD since it is easier to digest but I do make an attempt to show the picture at the same time.

SINAD by itself then is best thought of engineering excellence when not focused on too accurately. I show the SINAD figures in four buckets for this reason. No question in my mind that a device in forth bucket is much worse design than those in first or even second bucket. In this manner, we use SINAD as a rough figure of merit without falling into the pitfall of using it too accurately when it doesn't have such predictive power.

The other reason to show SINAD is that the industry uses THD+N which is the same thing as SINAD. By measuring this we can tell how truthful the manufacturer is in their specifications."
So will an increase of SINAD be audibile? I think the answer is it depends on more than just the simple SINAD score. I think as we are getting around 100, I think we are getting into an area where gains would be hard to detect for many of us (such as myself).

I think that some people just like to squeeze every drop of performance out of their investment, and I’m one of those people. It’s the reason that I visit forums like this.

That said, I may not be able to tell the difference between the 3600 running with the onboard amps enabled/disabled, but you can bet that if my 3500 had the option that the 3600 does that I’d configure it that way immediately.
 
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simple6

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I think the x3600h is an amazing device. I do not own one yet. But I own a x2500h (driving focal aria 906 and a PC-2000) for my living room setup. It sounds very engaging an very fun. The living room is not well treated so it is hard to tell how good it really is.
I wish I would have the x3600h for my music room setup. In my music room I have a miniDSP SHD, RME-ADI2, D30 DAC, XTZ edge A2,.... All these boxes could be easily replaced by the x3600h at a fraction of the cost and with probably the same SQ and the same feature set. Really compelling.

I've had the x3600h for 6 months now, and really enjoying it. Especially the way Audyssey and DEQ worked wonders in my room is phenomenal. For music though I don't help to think that DIRAC and the better DAC of the miniDSP SHD would lift the quality for music listening to the next stage. As displayed before in this forum DIRAC can phase align all speakers in a setup, something crucial for me and my 2 subs (which I use for music as well). So yes, completely different approach to your thinking :)

On the other hand it is not the sleekest of solutions to maintain parallel stereo and multichannel systems and the price of the miniDSP SHD is rather salty. I wonder whether just paying a calibrator 200-300£ to phase align my speakers in my current x3600h-centric setup is the most cost-effective approach ;-)
 

AudioJester

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Damn, my 5yo Marantz pre just died. This Denon looks perfect and half the price of the Marantz. Is it ok to just use as a Pre? - cant conceptualise all the talk of eco mode effect.
I use external amps, can this provide a biamp output (4 channels for front speakers) from the preouts?
 

Trdat

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I am really curious if this amp can be used simultaneously obviously not on the fly but with different settings to use the pre outs with my Hypex amps for music listening(multichannel) and say the on board amps with different speakers which Ill have for a movie set up and then can change the settings back to use with my music set up?
 

Trdat

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I am really curious if this amp can be used simultaneously obviously not on the fly but with different settings to use the pre outs with my Hypex amps for music listening(multichannel) and say the on board amps with different speakers which Ill have for a movie set up and then can change the settings back to use with my music set up?

I am reading each post meticulously and I just don't see the point of all this discussion when you can't bypass the centre channel.

Have I understood correctly(putting aside the whole 1.5 volts issue) that you have pre outs which you can only use for the left and right? So what the hell is the point if the centre channel cannot be utilised with your own external amp? With an amp that has pre out options...

What I am confused about is you have different zones right so can't you set a multichannel in one room with pre outs and use say 3 channels of the internal amplification? Yes the amp measures well but it doesn't fulfil the purpose for us who want a proper set up. They have purposely(if I have understood correctly) made it this way so us so called audiophiles go the next level up and pay over 3k so we can bypass the centre channel. I don't think this receiver deserves praise rather it should be knocked down. One centre channel bypass is all it could of taken for this receiver to be a be all and end all for all receivers but they still play a game and will continue to loose their reputation. Not keen on companies who take this avenue...
 

simple6

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I am reading each post meticulously and I just don't see the point of all this discussion when you can't bypass the centre channel.

Have I understood correctly(putting aside the whole 1.5 volts issue) that you have pre outs which you can only use for the left and right? So what the hell is the point if the centre channel cannot be utilised with your own external amp? With an amp that has pre out options...

What I am confused about is you have different zones right so can't you set a multichannel in one room with pre outs and use say 3 channels of the internal amplification? Yes the amp measures well but it doesn't fulfil the purpose for us who want a proper set up. They have purposely(if I have understood correctly) made it this way so us so called audiophiles go the next level up and pay over 3k so we can bypass the centre channel. I don't think this receiver deserves praise rather it should be knocked down. One centre channel bypass is all it could of taken for this receiver to be a be all and end all for all receivers but they still play a game and will continue to loose their reputation. Not keen on companies who take this avenue...


The 3600 has pre-out for the centre and surround channels... The added benefit of the "clean" 2v output is just for the 2 front channels though (if you apply the "hack"). So you should be ok if your power amp is happy with 1.5-1.6v for the centre channel. If you plan to use a Hypex module-based amp for all channels maybe not a good idea with this amp.
 

Trdat

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The 3600 has pre-out for the centre and surround channels... The added benefit of the "clean" 2v output is just for the 2 front channels though (if you apply the "hack"). So you should be ok if your power amp is happy with 1.5-1.6v for the centre channel. If you plan to use a Hypex module-based amp for all channels maybe not a good idea with this amp.

Ok. So I do have pre outs for all the channels but the 2V is only for left and right with the centre and surrounds being 1.5/1.6 volts?

Even if i use the NC122MP would 1.5V be insufficient? I think it still needs 2v for maximum power output.

And lastly, lets say the 1.5 is enough for arguments sake, then it would be possible to switch from one setting to another say one for music listening with external amps and another with internal amps for movies(with its corresponding set of speakers).
 

simple6

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Ok. So I do have pre outs for all the channels but the 2V is only for left and right with the centre and surrounds being 1.5/1.6 volts?

Even if i use the NC122MP would 1.5V be insufficient? I think it still needs 2v for maximum power output.

And lastly, lets say the 1.5 is enough for arguments sake, then it would be possible to switch from one setting to another say one for music listening with external amps and another with internal amps for movies(with its corresponding set of speakers).

My understanding is that hypex-based amps need 2v to shine.

On your second q. Still alright to connect as you suggest. But keep in mind that if you want the "clean output hack" you have to be changing the amp-assign setting each time you want to watch a movie. Otherwise the 3600 will be seeing your "movie" front speakers as height speakers :p
 

Chilli

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My understanding is that hypex-based amps need 2v to shine.

On your second q. Still alright to connect as you suggest. But keep in mind that if you want the "clean output hack" you have to be changing the amp-assign setting each time you want to watch a movie. Otherwise the 3600 will be seeing your "movie" front speakers as height speakers :p

I think they were quoting more than 2V for the NC500MP?. The NC122MP is a different amp, and pretty sure it has a lower input sensitivity (Something Like 1.2V?)

So, we literally have to make a manual change every time you want to watch a movie? i would have thought an avr saves the settings. Esp speaker assignment?
 

Trdat

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My understanding is that hypex-based amps need 2v to shine.

On your second q. Still alright to connect as you suggest. But keep in mind that if you want the "clean output hack" you have to be changing the amp-assign setting each time you want to watch a movie. Otherwise the 3600 will be seeing your "movie" front speakers as height speakers :p

Changing amp assign settings is the least of my problems, that is easy enough better than switching amps back and forth between pre pro and separate multichannel DAC for two different applications and resetting the speaker cables. That is a headache.

Now to figure out if the 1.5 volts will be okay for centre channel, the thing is it will be for multichannel music listening so there will be days will pump the system and want it to shine. Ill email hypex.
 

Trdat

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I think they were quoting more than 2V for the NC500MP?. The NC122MP is a different amp, and pretty sure it has a lower input sensitivity (Something Like 1.2V?)

I am sure someone mentioned in another post once it was 2v but im sure an expert should chime in and let us know.

So, we literally have to make a manual change every time you want to watch a movie? i would have thought an avr saves the settings. Esp speaker assignment?

This I am really keen to know as well....
 

Dan1210

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For anyone reading this with an older avr i have the marantz sr6012 and it seems i can also turn off the front left and right amplifier channels using the same method described here.
 

Trdat

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I think they were quoting more than 2V for the NC500MP?. The NC122MP is a different amp, and pretty sure it has a lower input sensitivity (Something Like 1.2V?)

Yep check the datasheet, 1.17v for the NC122MP.
 
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A.West

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For anyone reading this with an older avr i have the marantz sr6012 and it seems i can also turn off the front left and right amplifier channels using the same method described here.
Same for my SR6014. Can I hear a difference? Nothing blatant at my moderate listening volumes.
 

A.West

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Why bother with the nc122mp amps in this case? They have little if any more power than the Denon's internal amps, which themselves tested pretty clean. In 2 channel mode they would have less power than the Denon amps into 8ohm speakers. You could use the Hypex for center and surrounds to allow the Denon amps to have more power for 2 channel mains. And no, the Denon doesn't have memory settings to allow quick switching from one amp configuration to another. But it should be easy to switch listening modes from stereo to multichannel, using constant amplification setup.
 

Trdat

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Why bother with the nc122mp amps in this case? They have little if any more power than the Denon's internal amps, which themselves tested pretty clean. In 2 channel mode they would have less power than the Denon amps into 8ohm speakers. You could use the Hypex for center and surrounds to allow the Denon amps to have more power for 2 channel mains. And no, the Denon doesn't have memory settings to allow quick switching from one amp configuration to another. But it should be easy to switch listening modes from stereo to multichannel, using constant amplification setup.

Point taken.

Why I ask is cause if I opt for a amp like this I would like to use the internal amps for one type of application and the pre outs for another. And great to know that a switch should do the change over plus a few other changes in the set up.
 

Chilli

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Point taken.

Why I ask is cause if I opt for a amp like this I would like to use the internal amps for one type of application and the pre outs for another. And great to know that a switch should do the change over plus a few other changes in the set up.

Since you have nc122mp already, then I think you would still put them to your FR and FL so you can make use of 11ch, right?
Plus, you know what your speakers sound like with the nc122. What speakers do you have?
I would be interested to see whether you do this and whether the sound is good or not. I have some nc122 being unused at the moment.
 

Trdat

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The 3600 has pre-out for the centre and surround channels... The added benefit of the "clean" 2v output is just for the 2 front channels though (if you apply the "hack"). So you should be ok if your power amp is happy with 1.5-1.6v for the centre channel. If you plan to use a Hypex module-based amp for all channels maybe not a good idea with this amp.

So when people mention the centre channel cannot be bypassed what does that mean?

I took that as you can't disconnect the centre channel to use the centre channel pre out.

But you mention that there is preouts for all channels so I'm confused with the whole cannot bypass centre channel thing...
 

John Galt

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So when people mention the centre channel cannot be bypassed what does that mean?

I took that as you can't disconnect the centre channel to use the centre channel pre out.

But you mention that there is preouts for all channels so I'm confused with the whole cannot bypass centre channel thing...

I believe it means that the onboard amp can’t be disable for the center channel even if you’re using the center channel pre-out. I doubt that any of this matters unless you’re doing hi-fi music critical listening, unless you use the center for hi-fi music, which I don’t.
 
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