Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

[BassThatHertz]

Bought this receiver but haven't set it up yet. Will use the front pre-outs to connect to an external amp. I have a question, I can use TIDAL Connect on the receiver, or I can use it on my WiiM Ultra and connect it to one of the analog inputs on the AVR. I believe the WiiM's DAC would be used in the latter case.

Which DAC should be better, the one in the WiiM or the one in this AVR? I'm wondering which route to take when listening to music.

The pre-outs will be connected to a Buckeye amp which uses the Purifi 1ET6525SAs which will power my Dynaudio Emit 50 towers. I don't want to be spending all this money on high quality amplification but neutering the overall performance a little by not using the best DAC I have.

 

[Chromatischism]

I always prefer just sending digital so there's only one DAC in the chain and no ADC.

Is there a reason you can't output optical?

 

[BassThatHertz]

I always prefer just sending digital so there's only one DAC in the chain and no ADC.

Is there a reason you can't output optical?

Optical out from the wiim to the denon? I could, but in that case wouldn't the AVR's dac be used which would be the same thing as running tidal connect on the denon?

I'm wondering which device has the better dac.

I don't think there would be any ADC in either of the cases I mentioned. If feeding wiim line out to the denon and running it in direct mode, I don't think there would be any ADC? There's no need for it to be converted to digital, I'm hoping it just passes the analog signal received to the pre outs.

 

[Chromatischism]

Optical out from the wiim to the denon? I could, but in that case wouldn't the AVR's dac be used which would be the same thing as running tidal connect on the denon?

I'm wondering which device has the better dac.

I don't think there would be any ADC in either of the cases I mentioned. If feeding wiim line out to the denon and running it in direct mode, I don't think there would be any ADC? There's no need for it to be converted to digital, I'm hoping it just passes the analog signal received to the pre outs.

I guess, but why run direct? You lose your subs and room correction.

 

[rvsixer]

I guess, but why run direct? You lose your subs and room correction.

Exactly .

My unsolicited added/expanded input:
These days differences between properly selected/implemented DAC's are pretty much inaudible. Loss of proper sub integration (xover, delays, etc.), and decent RC, are to me readily audible (and readily show up in comparison measurements as well).

I run digital everything into the AVR, in a treated room with multisub integration and RC; leaving sound mode set to AUTO (which auto-selects the proper source playback decoder AND auto-disables any direct/pure direct/AND the available foofoo sound modes)...and let the DAC's in the AVR do their thing.

Amazing @BassThatHertz is having/willing to learn all this for a friend that he/she bought the unit for...

 

[peng]

Optical out from the wiim to the denon? I could, but in that case wouldn't the AVR's dac be used which would be the same thing as running tidal connect on the denon?

I'm wondering which device has the better dac.

The Wiim Ultra has the better DAC IC, much better actually.

I don't think there would be any ADC in either of the cases I mentioned. If feeding wiim line out to the denon and running it in direct mode, I don't think there would be any ADC? There's no need for it to be converted to digital, I'm hoping it just passes the analog signal received to the pre outs.

Yes, but in direct mode you can't use room correction or eq so the overall results may be worse. No harm trying though.
Also, if you are going to use Tidal (streaming), that would be the bottleneck anyway. In terms of sound quality based on transparency, the most important part in the signal chain is the source contents that is usually limited by recording/mastering quality, that is once your electronics and speakers are at or past the point of diminishing return.

 

[ban25]

The Wiim Ultra has the better DAC IC, much better actually.

Yes, but in direct mode you can't use room correction or eq so the overall results may be worse. No harm trying though.
Also, if you are going to use Tidal (streaming), that would be the bottleneck anyway. In terms of sound quality based on transparency, the most important part in the signal chain is the source contents that is usually limited by recording/mastering quality, that is once your electronics and speakers are at or past the point of diminishing return.

Tidal is lossless FLAC, usually 24b/48 kHz, but often up to 24/192.

 

[jcarys]

As others have commented, there's no question that the Wiim has a better DAC, but that doesn't mean you are going to get a better final sound by using one. The DAC in the Denon is perfectly fine for any audio or video source you are going to use. Keeping your system simple minimizes the possible steps that can negatively effect the sound. I've used multiple Denon AVRs for well over a decade, and tested Tidal on a PC and Topping DAC output as analog vs. a TV input over HDMI. It was impossible to tell the difference in sound even in Pure Direct mode. So in theory your plan is valid, but in practice it makes no difference. I would either use Tidal Connect directly on the AVR or another source with digital input. Good Audyssey room correction is a far bigger benefit to your overall sound than any DAC difference.

 

[peng]

Tidal is lossless FLAC, usually 24b/48 kHz, but often up to 24/192.

I know, used them before and felt they were overrated. Sound quality seemed good though, in general. The MQA thing was more of a marketing hype but that’s a matter of opinion to some extent, they apparently stopped offering it, but to me it’s a good thing if they could lower the fees or help them in lowering their costs.

I don’t think dac chips with SINAD spec better than 100 dB would make a difference but since the Op asked that question, he might believe it would. If so, streaming would likely be the bottleneck relative to the wiim’s excellent dac chip, again, not that I believe it matters in practical term.

 

[BassThatHertz]

I guess, but why run direct? You lose your subs and room correction.

Although I have 2 SB-3000 subwoofers, I only use my Dynaudio Emit 50s when listening to music. In my room, they're strong even below 20Hz, as you can see in the graph below:

Red = No EQ
Orange = with Audyssey

And I prefer the sound with Audyssey off. I'm not surprised because I like a strong bass response and Audyssey neuters the ~55Hz boost my room gives.

Loss of proper sub integration (xover, delays, etc.), and decent RC, are to me readily audible (and readily show up in comparison measurements as well).
Amazing @BassThatHertz is having/willing to learn all this for a friend that he/she bought the unit for...

Refer to the above.

Amazing @BassThatHertz is having/willing to learn all this for a friend that he/she bought the unit for...

I bought the unit for myself.

Yes, but in direct mode you can't use room correction or eq so the overall results may be worse. No harm trying though.

Refer to the above.

Also, if you are going to use Tidal (streaming), that would be the bottleneck anyway. In terms of sound quality based on transparency, the most important part in the signal chain is the source contents that is usually limited by recording/mastering quality, that is once your electronics and speakers are at or past the point of diminishing return.

I know the source and speakers have a much bigger impact on the sound, but as that will be staying the same, why not choose the better DAC if I have the choice?

Good Audyssey room correction is a far bigger benefit to your overall sound than any DAC difference.

I'm satisfied with what Audyssey does for my subs (graph below), but the prefer the sound of speakers with Audyssey off.

Blue = subwoofers only, no EQ
Green = subwoofers only with Audyssey

 

[Chromatischism]

Although I have 2 SB-3000 subwoofers, I only use my Dynaudio Emit 50s when listening to music. In my room, they're strong even below 20Hz, as you can see in the graph below:

That is pretty impressive.

And I prefer the sound with Audyssey off. I'm not surprised because I like a strong bass response and Audyssey neuters the ~55Hz boost my room gives.

Having a very similar bump in my room, that would sound atrocious to me. But go with what you like

 

[BassThatHertz]

So when I want to use TIDAL Connect without Audyssey or my subs:

1. WiiM Ultra line out to AVR analog in with it set to Direct or Pure Direct is theoretically better? Do both Direct and Pure Direct bypass the ADC and the DAC in the Denon and simply pass the analog signal received from the WiiM to the pre-outs?

2. How would the optical out of the WiiM compare to the RCA out?

The question you might have is why use the AVR at all, it's because it's a mixed use system and I use it for movies too with crossovers, so I need the AVR to feed the external amp rather than the WiiM.

 

[peng]

So when I want to use TIDAL Connect without Audyssey or my subs:

1. WiiM Ultra line out to AVR analog in with it set to Direct or Pure Direct is theoretically better? Do both Direct and Pure Direct bypass the ADC and the DAC in the Denon and simply pass the analog signal received from the WiiM to the pre-outs?

It does bypass the adc and dac in direct and pure direct mode.

 

[Miker 1102]

I have a wiim ultra amp and a Denon 4500 and cannot say I can tell any difference in hearing as it uses the same equipment. I am not measuring it, though. I think the high res thing is much ado about nothing. HEOS is clunky and direct kills the subs. HEOS is really the only part of the Denon where it comes up a little short. I understand about wanting to use something that will give you better performance but does the tree fall if you cannot hear it? Seems like extra work without the pay off.

 

[peng]

I guess, but why run direct? You lose your subs and room correction.

He would lose room correction but not the subs.

 

[peng]

Although I have 2 SB-3000 subwoofers, I only use my Dynaudio Emit 50s when listening to music. In my room, they're strong even below 20Hz, as you can see in the graph below:

View attachment 511134
Red = No EQ
Orange = with Audyssey

And I prefer the sound with Audyssey off. I'm not surprised because I like a strong bass response and Audyssey neuters the ~55Hz boost my room gives.


Refer to the above.

I bought the unit for myself.

Refer to the above.

I know the source and speakers have a much bigger impact on the sound, but as that will be staying the same, why not choose the better DAC if I have the choice?

I'm satisfied with what Audyssey does for my subs (graph below), but the prefer the sound of speakers with Audyssey off.

View attachment 511140
Blue = subwoofers only, no EQ
Green = subwoofers only with Audyssey

If you prefer Audyssey off, then there is no reason not to use the much better Wiim's DAC. The "better" may not be = audibly better in a DBT or SBT, but for me, I would definitely feel better using the Wiim's vs the Denon's.

 

[Chromatischism]

He would lose room correction but not the subs.

I may as well kill my subs if they aren't corrected. 2.0 would be my preference.

 

[BassThatHertz]

If I want to connect this AVR to an external preamp using the pre-outs, how should I go about the volume settings? As both the AVR and preamp would have volume settings.

 

[Sal1950]

If I want to connect this AVR to an external preamp using the pre-outs, how should I go about the volume settings? As both the AVR and preamp would have volume settings.

For 2ch use right? I believe you can use the Zone2 output and there is a switch in the menu to shut-off the volume control from the Denon, then just adjust volume at the external preamp.

 

[rccarguy]

For 2ch use right? I believe you can use the Zone2 output and there is a switch in the menu to shut-off the volume control from the Denon, then just adjust volume at the external preamp.

WRONG