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Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review
- Thread starter amirm
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OrewaBob
Member
Well, so far so good, only been a couple of days but no cut outs since I have plugged directly into the wall socket 
.
The receiver is sitting on a hard-top cabinet with nothing close to it and does not seem to run hot, way cooler than the 3300 I had previously. The protection history said only a DC problem. I don't understand how a surge protector could cause the issue, but very happy if removing it has fixed the issue.
.The receiver is sitting on a hard-top cabinet with nothing close to it and does not seem to run hot, way cooler than the 3300 I had previously. The protection history said only a DC problem. I don't understand how a surge protector could cause the issue, but very happy if removing it has fixed the issue.
Surge protectors in general won't cause such an issue but if yours is defective in some ways then of course anything can happen. It could, for example, be activated prematurely by something (such as appliances, HVAC system, that draws a lot of current) starting and the resulting disturbances might appear to the AVR's protection scheme as excessive dc. Edit: I think it is a good idea to double check by measuring dc from the speaker output, all you need is a multimeter. If you get less than say, 50 mV, then you know the AVR is fine.Well, so far so good, only been a couple of days but no cut outs since I have plugged directly into the wall socket
The receiver is sitting on a hard-top cabinet with nothing close to it and does not seem to run hot, way cooler than the 3300 I had previously. The protection history said only a DC problem. I don't understand how a surge protector could cause the issue, but very happy if removing it has fixed the issue.
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OrewaBob
Member
I can't say for sure, as sometimes it wouldn't happen for a couple of weeks, but I have used it more than usual and given it a bit more exercise (loudness) than usual without any problem at all. Yes, I do wonder what it could be doing to the other items plugged into the board. It is a 'Monster' unit that was not cheap, and its 'protection' light is still happily on. Before installing this around a year ago, I never had any protection at all, and did not experience any problems. Is there any real value in surge protection? We do have a few heat pumps and solar generation, but the cut-outs were occurring in the evening (so no solar generation) and the mild weather means no heat pumps operating.
OrewaBob
Member
Reading more about Subs, most seem to say to plug them directly into the wall and not to use a surge protector with them. I had both SVS subs plugged into the same surge protector as the AVR, maybe that is not a good idea... The surge protector strip is rated at 2400W, so there should be plenty of capacity, but who knows. In the end, they are all going into the same AC outlet anyway (also rated at 2400W). I should mention that in NZ we run 240V everywhere, so that is only 10 Amps. I have tried plugging the AVR back into the surge panel with the AppleTV and Blu-ray player, and plugged both subs directly into the wall. I will test tonight . There are 4 outlets on the wall, but they are all on the same 16A circuit.
. There are 4 outlets on the wall, but they are all on the same 16A circuit.Reading more about Subs, most seem to say to plug them directly into the wall and not to use a surge protector with them. I had both SVS subs plugged into the same surge protector as the AVR, maybe that is not a good idea... The surge protector strip is rated at 2400W, so there should be plenty of capacity, but who knows. In the end, they are all going into the same AC outlet anyway (also rated at 2400W). I should mention that in NZ we run 240V everywhere, so that is only 10 Amps. I have tried plugging the AVR back into the surge panel with the AppleTV and Blu-ray player, and plugged both subs directly into the wall. I will test tonight
There are too many false info on the internet because anyone can say anything, so take a look of Wiki (or other credible sites on tech info) before believing any self proclaimed "experts":
Surge protector - Wikipedia
So, even if the surge protector has a relatively low let-through voltage of 330 V, it will not limit current, or anything unless the incoming voltage "surge" above 330 V. 330 V is well above your incoming voltage of 110 to 120 V so there is a good margin.
Some manufacturers, including Bryston (I mention it because I had a Bryston amp and have the manual) do often suggest their users to plug their amp direct into the wall outlet. That's likely because they want to play it safe so that their high power amps won't get voltage (hence current) limited, if plug into some not well design surge protected power adapter devices. Note that they said those things in the old days, but now they also design/sell their own power conditioner/surge suppressors so they might have changed their tune on such devices or at least change their wording on their recommendations on the use of such devices, instead of using blanket statements.
If you have an expensive Monster surge protection device, you should read up on their specs and then you will know if there is a risk of them limiting voltage/current. I highly doubt they would, unless it becomes defective, or degraded, for whatever reasons. I would imagine such Monster devices would have been designed to comply with established standards.
Again, do you have a multimeter? If you do, it is quick and easy to find out if you have excessive dc from the outlet and/or your amp output. There are tons of video on the measurements of dc from the wall outlet and/or at the amplifier output, so be sure to pay attention only to those credible ones posted by knowledgeable individuals such as real electrical/electronic engineers.
In any case, follow safety practice such as wear insulating gloves and wear approved safety glasses.
How to Measure DC Offset: 5 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
DC offset (also known as DC bias) is a concept employed when dealing with electrical components, most notably audio equipment. These components send either power or audio signals using alternating current (AC), by which the signal reverses...
www.wikihow.com
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OrewaBob
Member
Thank you for this and the explanations! I have just measured the DC offset on each channel and they are all small, between about 2.2mV to 4.3mV. That article seemed to indicate that this is fine.
After several days without problem with the AVR plugged straight into the wall, I changed the arrangement (as I said above) to have the AVR plugged into the surge strip and the subs straight into the wall. Again no problems (yet). I know it is early days with this intermittent fault I am having, sometimes it would go for several weeks without going into protection mode, but this is encouraging as it had been more frequent recently. I will leave it setup like this for a few weeks and see if this has fixed my problem. If it has, it would imply that the AVR does not like to be plugged into the same surge strip as two high-current subs.
I suppose that I should then go back to everything plugged into the strip, and see if the problem comes back, to be sure.
I did open up the receiver and blew any dust out with a compressor and air gun (just in case any damp dust was shorting anything), although it did not seem dusty at all.
Thank you all for the advice, I really appreciate it.
After several days without problem with the AVR plugged straight into the wall, I changed the arrangement (as I said above) to have the AVR plugged into the surge strip and the subs straight into the wall. Again no problems (yet). I know it is early days with this intermittent fault I am having, sometimes it would go for several weeks without going into protection mode, but this is encouraging as it had been more frequent recently. I will leave it setup like this for a few weeks and see if this has fixed my problem
. If it has, it would imply that the AVR does not like to be plugged into the same surge strip as two high-current subs.I suppose that I should then go back to everything plugged into the strip, and see if the problem comes back, to be sure.
I did open up the receiver and blew any dust out with a compressor and air gun (just in case any damp dust was shorting anything), although it did not seem dusty at all.
Thank you all for the advice, I really appreciate it.
OrewaBob
Member
Bother...
After a few days plugged into the Monster surge protector, but the subs directly into a wall socket, the Denon went into protection mode again :-(
I then unplugged it and put in straight into the wall socket, but again after a few days, into protection mode...
Now, although there are two double outlets on the wall, they are both on the same electrical circuit, so the AVR and the two subs are now individually plugged into the wall, but all on the same circuit, if that really is the issue in any way.
I am starting to think that the AVR is just broken, maybe just too sensitive. I could send it in for servicing, but I am afraid with an intermittent fault, it may not be easy to track down what the issue actually is.
Anything else that I could try?
After a few days plugged into the Monster surge protector, but the subs directly into a wall socket, the Denon went into protection mode again :-(
I then unplugged it and put in straight into the wall socket, but again after a few days, into protection mode...
Now, although there are two double outlets on the wall, they are both on the same electrical circuit, so the AVR and the two subs are now individually plugged into the wall, but all on the same circuit, if that really is the issue in any way.
I am starting to think that the AVR is just broken, maybe just too sensitive. I could send it in for servicing, but I am afraid with an intermittent fault, it may not be easy to track down what the issue actually is.
Anything else that I could try?
moonlight rainbow dream
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This sounds dumb, but check your wiring just in case. A stray strand of wire could be causing a short at the terminals.
OrewaBob
Member
Thanks, but I did check that very carefully as the first thing. I then rewired all the front speakers completely with nice new 12 gauge wire and fitted quality banana plugs for all speakers at the AVR end. The fault is very intermittent, I can use it for several days before it goes into protection mode, and then I just need to turn it off and on again to restart the material and continue. It usually happens in the evening streaming from Disney/Acorn/Netflix or from my NAS drive. Super simple setup with the AVR being driven only by an AppleTV 4k, in a 5.2 setup (and TV connected by HDMI).
Can you remind us what did it show in the protection history, wasn't it "dc", or something else?
Can you try it with a different set of speakers? Thinking you may be able to narrow it down a bit by removing one speaker at a time or changing out one speaker for a different one. To see if a specific channel or speaker could be part of the problem.
OrewaBob
Member
Yes, it was a DC detected problem, 24 times.
I don't have access to any other speakers unfortunately, and I would need to run them for days to know if it had made a difference. I did measure the DC Resistance of the speakers at the wires and it was around 6 Ohms. From what I have read, that sounds reasonable for speakers of 8 Ohm impedance.
Does anyone know if the power supply from the wall could even cause this problem? Like could a momentary brown-out trip this circuit to say DC? The AC seems to read a pretty consistent 230V
It would be a difficult job, but I could run a new clean feed to a new wall socket from the switchboard if that would really help. The circuit that feeds the AVR presently also feeds quite a few other things including the NAS drive and router, mostly low current devices. The AVR and subs will certainly be the largest load. But, I have lived in this house for 15 years and used several AVRs in that time without issue, even this present one worked fine for its first two years.
Thank you all again for trying to help me! I really appreciate it!
I don't have access to any other speakers unfortunately, and I would need to run them for days to know if it had made a difference. I did measure the DC Resistance of the speakers at the wires and it was around 6 Ohms. From what I have read, that sounds reasonable for speakers of 8 Ohm impedance.
Does anyone know if the power supply from the wall could even cause this problem? Like could a momentary brown-out trip this circuit to say DC? The AC seems to read a pretty consistent 230V
It would be a difficult job, but I could run a new clean feed to a new wall socket from the switchboard if that would really help. The circuit that feeds the AVR presently also feeds quite a few other things including the NAS drive and router, mostly low current devices. The AVR and subs will certainly be the largest load. But, I have lived in this house for 15 years and used several AVRs in that time without issue, even this present one worked fine for its first two years.
Thank you all again for trying to help me! I really appreciate it!
I think most likely either the detection circuit or the amplifier itself is acting up. As you said before, for such intermittent fault it is very hard for the repair people to troubleshoot. If they are nice enough, they would/probably should, just replace the parts that could cause such an intermittent issue. Before you send it out, may be you can try and convince Denon to let you speak to their service supervisor direct and get him to agree the plan that would include replacing the related parts (easy to do if they think the suspect is the detection circuitry) if they could not replicate the issue and ID the culprit.
If you just send it out to their repair facility, you would likely get it back without being fixed, for the obvious reasons.
OrewaBob
Member
Thank you, I think that you are correct. I will see who I can talk to in NZ, I agree that unless they just agree to replace the suspect
parts, it is unlikely that they would see the fault in their testing. It is better when broken things stay broken so you can prove the problem!
parts, it is unlikely that they would see the fault in their testing. It is better when broken things stay broken so you can prove the problem!
OrewaBob
Member
Yeah, I did that. It says it has the latest. It has wired ethernet. Thanks.
OrewaBob
Member
Interesting. The AVR has been going well without any problems, watched a couple of 'loud' movies etc. Last night watching a quiet show, it kept switching off. A restart would only last a few seconds until it failed again (each time with a loud 'Pop'). Tried running a heavy extension cord from a totally different power circuit, no difference. Unplugged the pair of surround speakers (so now running 3.2), and it then ran perfectly for the next hour. Could be just coincidence. If I plugged the surrounds into the rear channels on the AVR, I suppose I should run Audyssey again, would the AVR work it out and send what it should to the surrounds? My surrounds ARE really more at the back of the room anyway.
If the fault IS on one of the surround channels, would transferring the speakers to the different channel 'fix' the problem?
If the fault IS on one of the surround channels, would transferring the speakers to the different channel 'fix' the problem?
I think you should go through the process of elimination. So, leave the surround speakers disconnected for longer, long enough for you to know if those channels were responsible for the "shutdown". It you still get any shutdown, then disconnect the center channel, so on and so forth until you isolate the culprit. If even after disconnecting all speakers it still shutdown then you know you have no choice but to get it repaired. If it works find with no speaker connected, then you have the option of getting the unit repaired, or use it as a preamp, or buy a new AVR and sell the 3600 as preamp/processor. Basically, if you know which (or all) internal amp, or the preamp is the culprit, then you know your options. The process may take a longer time, but you have been trying long enough and still don't have anything conclusive, so it is time to have a plan (one that is logical, such as by process of elimination), and see it through once and for all.
OrewaBob
Member
Yeah, you are right. I plugged the surrounds back in and it went into protection again after only 20 minutes, and back into protection again after 2 minutes for several restarts. Then after unplugging the surrounds, all was fine for the rest of the evening. I will use it like that for a while, plug in one of the surrounds at a time to see if I can work out which channel. Will the AVR work with only one surround present?
My wife is over it and says buy a new one, but it is frustrating with such a new bit of kit. The 3800 and 4800 are so new that there are no reasonable discounts yet too! It also sounds like the 3800 is not an upgrade either.
I gather that the AVR will not allow me to use the rear channels instead of the surround channels if one of the surround amps is faulty?
My wife is over it and says buy a new one, but it is frustrating with such a new bit of kit. The 3800 and 4800 are so new that there are no reasonable discounts yet too! It also sounds like the 3800 is not an upgrade either.
I gather that the AVR will not allow me to use the rear channels instead of the surround channels if one of the surround amps is faulty?
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