Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

[Matt0305]

Any recommendations for an amp in the $500 range?

 

[AudioLover73]

An Emotiva BasX A-300 seems like something you might consider. I looked at the A-500 but if you look at its "all channels driven" rating of 80WPC, you might end up with less power coming out of three 4 ohm speakers than if you used the A-300 on the two fronts, letting the 3600 handle the center. With the 3600 handling the 4 ohm center, I wouldn't be surprised if it surpassed 200 watts before you could hear audible distortion. Do you have a high-pass crossover set on your center channel? If you do, the 3600 should have more than enough power for your center.

Any recommendations for an amp in the $500 range?

 

[peng]

Do you think the two fans inside the 3600 are inadequate?

I think they may be adequate protection for premature damage due to overheating from not having adequate natural ventilation. Denon is vague about what is good ventilation. In the manual they only advised "Please re-install this unit in a place having good ventilation."

The build in fans appeared to have been factory set to turn on when the heatsink temperature is so high that the unit may be allowed to run hot enough to shorten its life without the fans ever reach the set point. That is just based on my educated guess, having measured how "warm" the unit could get by shooting my infrared temperature gun onto the warmest spot on top and inside of the enclosure that the light beam could reach. So to me, an external fan is for longevity reason if nothing else.

 

[peng]

Any recommendations for an amp in the $500 range?

For $499, if I need a 150-200 WX2 amp I would try the Buckeye amp NC252MP (the two channel version), based on the ASR measurements. Someone told me he is using one (the higher power model) with his AVR-X4400H and only have to increase the trim by 1.5 dB to match with the internal amp so the apparently lower gain may not be much of an issue. The Emovita A-300 is cheaper.

Buckeye 6 Channel Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[RichB]

I think they may be adequate protective it from mature damage due to overheating from not having adequate natural ventilation. Denon is vague about what is good ventilation. In the manual they only advised "Please re-install this unit in a place having good ventilation."

The built in fans appeared to have been factory set to turn on when the heatsink temperature is so high that the unit may be allowed to run hot enough to shorten its life without the fans ever reach the set point. That is just based on my educated guess, having measured how "warm" the unit could get by shooting my infrared temperature gun onto the warmest spot on top and inside of the enclosure that the light beam could reach. So to me, an external fan is for longevity reason if nothing else.

Power into resistive load does not tell the story of performance driving reactive speaker loads. We simply do not know the degree to which amplifiers in general remain linear and retain their distortion specifications when driving speakers. This is true for all amps but I suspect a greater issue with amplifiers that have minimal cooling and unknown protection/limiting circuitry. It is important to remember the goals. Maximize power specifications and never break. This is why these products are not rated into 4 Ohm resistive loads.

Generally, reviewers do not hold these products to the same standards as a dedicated amplifier. They look particularly bad at the first watt judging from the sound and vision left wall crawl.

- Rich

 

[peng]

Power into resistive load tells the story of performance driving reactive speaker loads. We simply do not know the degree to which amplifiers in general remain linear and retain their distortion specifications when driving speakers. This is true for all amps but I suspect a greater issue with amplifiers that have minimal cooling and unknown protection/limiting circuitry. It is important to remember the goals. Maximize power specifications and never break. This is why these products are not rated into 4 Ohm resistive loads.

Generally, reviewers do not hold these products to the same standards as a dedicated amplifier. They look particularly bad at the first watt judging from the sound and vision left wall crawl.

- Rich

I wish you wait for me to fix the typos lol..

 

[peng]

I never consider any mid range AVR 4 ohm rated anyway unless they actually rate them like 100W 8 ohms ohms, 60 W 4 ohms, not just rated 4 to 16 ohms kind of vague specs.

Also, rating amps with watts is bad to begin with. Much better to at least rate them with max current at a given voltage and phase angle, and also the current at a given max voltage at a given phase angle. Still won't be perfect, just much more useful.

 

[RichB]

I never consider any mid range AVR 4 ohm rated anyway unless they actually rate them like 100W 8 ohms ohms, 60 W 4 ohms, not just rated 4 to 16 ohms kind of vague specs.

Also, rating amps with watts is bad to begin with. Much better to at least rate them with max current at a given voltage and phase angle, and also the current at a given max voltage at a given phase angle. Still won't be perfect, just much more useful.

Benchmark provides power into load numbers, maximum amps, and voltage gain, though not into phase angles.
The maximum voltage gain is interesting because that can be the limiting factor where the impedance is very high.

The Revel F228Bes are rated at 90 dB efficiency but have impedance that dips below 4 Ohms at 100 Hz and 12 Ohms at 2 kHz.
In one area an amp could run out of current and in the mid-range, run out of voltage.


If looking at WPC at 8 Ohms, an AVR could be over 100 WPC and so would the AHB2.
At 4 Ohms, the AHB2 almost doubles to 180 WPC whereas the AVR will drop (as in your example) to 60 WPC.
The immediate results is reduced bass. With the F228Be that would mean a drop in output between 80 and 200 Hz.

The ASR measurements seem better at low volume than those found in Sound and Vision.

- Rich

 

[rccarguy]

Don't kn="peng, post: 712876, member: 7644"]I think they may be adequate protection for premature damage due to overheating from not having adequate natural ventilation. Denon is vague about what is good ventilation. In the manual they only advised "Please re-install this unit in a place having good ventilation."

The build in fans appeared to have been factory set to turn on when the heatsink temperature is so high that the unit may be allowed to run hot enough to shorten its life without the fans ever reach the set point. That is just based on my educated guess, having measured how "warm" the unit could get by shooting my infrared temperature gun onto the warmest spot on top and inside of the enclosure that the light beam could reach. So to me, an external fan is for longevity reason if nothing else.[/QUOTE]

Don't know why they don't allow manual control, like on lowest rpm whilst on and 20 mins after putting into standby

 

[AudioLover73]

If we're talking about 2 kHz, how could any amplifier struggle? In a home setting, a typical midrange driver probably doesn't see more than a few watts during the loudest of passages, a tweeter even less. They can't even handle the power. Even professional compression drivers in PA speakers barely handle 40 watts continuously. Bass is most demanding, and since many people offload that duty to the subwoofer, AVRs don't really see significant challenges these days. In my setup, I have 2400 watts RMS going to my 6 subwoofers. My mid-grade Onkyo AVR never struggles even when it's too loud to withstand. Maybe the OP might try enabling a high-pass crossover on his front speakers first if he's using a subwoofer.

Benchmark provides power into load numbers, maximum amps, and voltage gain, though not into phase angles.
The maximum voltage gain is interesting because that can be the limiting factor where the impedance is very high.

The Revel F228Bes are rated at 90 dB efficiency but have impedance that dips below 4 Ohms at 100 Hz and 12 Ohms at 2 kHz.
In one area an amp could run out of current and in the mid-range, run out of voltage.
View attachment 118943

If looking at WPC at 8 Ohms, an AVR could be over 100 WPC and so would the AHB2.
At 4 Ohms, the AHB2 almost doubles to 180 WPC whereas the AVR will drop (as in your example) to 60 WPC.
The immediate results is reduced bass. With the F228Be that would mean a drop in output between 80 and 200 Hz.

The ASR measurements seem better at low volume than those found in Sound and Vision.

- Rich

 

[AudioLover73]

I just thought of something else you could try even if it's just to see if you're actually running out of power. Do you have your front left and right speakers running full range, and do you send your bass to a subwoofer? If so, try enabling a high-pass crossover on the fronts by setting them to small with a crossover frequency of 80Hz. Then run your system through the scenario that made you feel that you were running low on power. If this fixes your problem, then it's possible your 3600 was running out of power when trying to send bass to the fronts. If it sounds good like this, then your problem is solved.

Is it worth offloading my 4 ohm LCR channels with an external amp? I run my 3600 in 5.1.2 at some relatively high levels and I can notice a drop in available power when pushing 7 channels, even if it's only slight. Would it help the amp run a little cooler?

 

[RichB]

If we're talking about 2 kHz, how could any amplifier struggle? In a home setting, a typical midrange driver probably doesn't see more than a few watts during the loudest of passages, a tweeter even less. They can't even handle the power. Even professional compression drivers in PA speakers barely handle 40 watts continuously. Bass is most demanding, and since many people offload that duty to the subwoofer, AVRs don't really see significant challenges these days. In my setup, I have 2400 watts RMS going to my 6 subwoofers. My mid-grade Onkyo AVR never struggles even when it's too loud to withstand. Maybe the OP might try enabling a high-pass crossover on his front speakers first if he's using a subwoofer.

Of course, that is speaker load dependent but a trumpet can get you to 1 kHz and a piano is goes well above.
The required voltage requirements are related volume amplification and the source.
The load (speakers) have phase angles and wildly varying impedance.

2K was selected for a specific speaker but drop that requirement to 300 Hz, well above crossing to a subwoofer and there is no difference in the amplification requirements.

The point is that amps need current to track and provide the voltage amplification into reactive loads. The point is that you can run out of voltage amplification before current. For many products with undersized power supplies, current sags first.

I'd like to see AVR measured into even a simulated load like Stereophile.

- Rich

 

[AudioLover73]

Do you know of any comparisons where amplifiers with similar power measurements (made with resistive loads) have been shown to differ significantly in performance when driving a typical speaker?

Of course, that is speaker load dependent but a trumpet can get you to 1 kHz and a piano is goes well above.
The required voltage requirements are related volume amplification and the source.
The load (speakers) have phase angles and wildly varying impedance.

2K was selected for a specific speaker but drop that requirement to 300 Hz, well above crossing to a subwoofer and there is no difference in the amplification requirements.

The point is that amps need current to track and provide the voltage amplification into reactive loads. The point is that you can run out of voltage amplification before current. For many products with undersized power supplies, current sags first.

I'd like to see AVR measured into even a simulated load like Stereophile.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Do you know of any comparisons where amplifiers with similar power measurements (made with resistive loads) have been shown to differ significantly in performance when driving a typical speaker?

Do you know the voltage required to drive your speakers to drive your system to your desired listening levels.

Here is a good article describing voltage amplification and power requirement calculations.
It's a complicated subject but I suppose it can be as simple as: I added subs so it's all good.

Calculating the Performance of an Amplifier / Speaker Combination - Ex - Benchmark Media Systems

- Rich

 

[Matt0305]

I just thought of something else you could try even if it's just to see if you're actually running out of power. Do you have your front left and right speakers running full range, and do you send your bass to a subwoofer? If so, try enabling a high-pass crossover on the fronts by setting them to small with a crossover frequency of 80Hz. Then run your system through the scenario that made you feel that you were running low on power. If this fixes your problem, then it's possible your 3600 was running out of power when trying to send bass to the fronts. If it sounds good like this, then your problem is solved.

I already have all channels crossed over at 80hz. I'm can definitely perceive a reduction in output when driving 7 channels. I'm going to purchase at at least a 2 channel amp and see how it goes

 

[Benedium]

I already have all channels crossed over at 80hz. I'm can definitely perceive a reduction in output when driving 7 channels. I'm going to purchase at at least a 2 channel amp and see how it goes

Just turn up the volume. You would have to spend at least twice as much as the avr cost to get at most 3db difference and that's if u are already maxing out at 97db at 10ft listening distance assuming your speaker sensitivity is 86db/w. Use this helpful link to see for yourself...
https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[AudioLover73]

Turn up the volume? What do you mean by that? He's already out of power. I feel that 3dB isn't a small difference. I have a 40wpc receiver, and I can tell it is significantly less powerful than my 100 wpc receiver. Even just turning up the volume 3 dB makes a significant difference. In this case, if he uses an Emotiva BasX A-300, he will be sending his front left and right speakers each 300 watts or more before he hears any sign of distress. This seems to be a very affordable upgrade.

Just turn up the volume. You would have to spend at least twice as much as the avr cost to get at most 3db difference and that's if u are already maxing out at 97db at 10ft listening distance assuming your speaker sensitivity is 86db/w. Use this helpful link to see for yourself...
https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[Benedium]

Turn up the volume? What do you mean by that? He's already out of power. 3dB is no small difference. I used to have a 40wpc receiver. I can tell you there is a huge difference between that and a 100 wpc receiver. Just turning up the volume 3 dB makes a significant difference. In this case, if he uses an Emotiva BasX A-300, he will be sending his front left and right speakers each 300 watts or more before he hears any sign of distress. This is a very affordable upgrade.

Guess I don't really know. So what SPL at his listening distance would he be most likely listening at?

 

[Matt0305]

Worst case scenario I get a small db bump and reduce the strain on my AVR when watching multichannel content. I don't see any downside.

 

[Benedium]

Worst case scenario I get a small db bump and reduce the strain on my AVR when watching multichannel content. I don't see any downside.

Cool. So, what would be the size of such an amp be? And the minimum cost? I don't mind trying if it's cheap enough and yet an audible improvement.