Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[peng]

Can you explain the above in simple terms for a non technical person?

I will be listening to 50% music and watching movies, my current equipment is here


My CD player is connected via analogue to use the Marantz DAC and not my AVR


LIVING ROOM SETUP

Panasonic TX-55CX802 Television
Amazon Fire TV Cube
Apple TV Box
Denon AVR-X2200W
Van Damme Hi Fi Speaker Cables
Monitor Audio Bronze 500 Floorstanders
(For Main front speakers)
Monitor Audio Bronze C150 Centre Speaker
Monitor Audio Bronze 50’s on stands
(For rear surrounds)
BK XXLS400 FF Subwoofer
Marantz CD63 MkII KI Signature CD Player
Pioneer BDP-180 Blu Ray Player
Sony PS4 Pro Games Console

I would just quote Amir as follow:

"Marantz takes one of the best AVRs we have tested, the Denon AVR-X3600H and reduces its performance into mediocrity in many areas. "

That's why I said Amir never said it was "crap", just mediocre..

He also found the same roll off due to the slow filter, similar performance to the AV8805 and 7705's, but do you think you can hear a difference due to the roll off starting at about 10 kHz and dropped only 2.5 dB by the time it hit 20 kHz? Also keep in mind this should not audibly affect analog input direct mode or even digital input with higher sampling frequency such as 88.2, 96 kHz or higher, because at higher sampling frequency, the roll off would start at much higher frequency too even with the slow filter. On this point, sorry, no layman's term that I know of can be used..

Musicality that you mentioned is a subjective term. To me, it would just mean "live like", or transparency, accuracy, neutrality. To others, it may mean the sound is "colored" to their taste, or with more harmonics distortions that could add to the original signal and make it sound "warm", "euphonic" etc.. So it can be a hit and miss thing if you are seeking a specific sound signature that you may prefer. I don't see any chance that Marantz can give you that kind of sound even if that's what you prefer, regardless what their marketing department claimed. They also aim for flat frequency response and minimum distortions of any kind, so they can't have it both ways especially if they used the same circuitry and parts, with the exception of the extra HDAM buffer stage, and yes the slow filter for the DAC, that affects many digital input at the low 44.1 kHz sampling frequency.

For distortions, you can easily compare the harmonic profiles measured by ASR and you will not find any particular reason why one would sound more "musical" than the other. If anything, the Denon actually seemed to have proportionally more even harmonics, that many believe contribute to the perceived so called "warm" sound. I would think that unless you are in a very quiet room and listen to near reference level you won't likely hear a difference between the two brand's comparable models. Even if you can hear the difference of a few dB SINAD, you may find the Marantz more musical because it has higher distortions, but then you may also find the opposite is true to you, and that's if you can see which one you are listening to. If you not allow to use you eyes, I would bet you can't tell a difference in a properly done comparison listening session using analog inputs and direct mode. The quality of the source contents and speakers are far more important than the difference between two very similar AVRs of Marantz and Denon.

 

[RichB]

I would just quote Amir as follow:

"Marantz takes one of the best AVRs we have tested, the Denon AVR-X3600H and reduces its performance into mediocrity in many areas. "

That's why I said Amir never said it was "crap", just mediocre..

He also found the same roll off due to the slow filter, similar performance the AV8805 and 7705, but do you think you can hear a difference due to the roll off starting at about 10 kHz and dropped only 2.5 dB by the time it hit 20 kHz? Also keep in mind this should not audibly affect analog input direct mode or digital input but with higher sampling rated such as 88.2, 96 kHz because at double the sampling rate the roll off would start at much higher frequency even with the slow filter. On this point, sorry, no layman's term that I know of can be used..

Musicality that you mentioned is a subjective term. To me, it would just mean "live like", or transparency, accuracy, neutrality. To others, it may mean "coloration", or with more harmonics distortions that could add to the original signal and make it "warm", "euphonic" etc.. So it can be a hit and miss thing if you are seeking a specific sound signature that you prefer the amplifier possesses. I don't see any chance that Marantz can give you that kind of sound even if that's what you prefer, regardless what their marketing department claimed. They also aim for flat frequency response and minimum distortions of any kind, so they can't have it both ways.

You can easily compare the harmonic profiles and you will not find any particular reason why one would sound more "musical" than the other. In anything, the Denon actually has proportionally more even harmonics, that are supposed to contribute to the perceived so called "warm" sound, though unless you are in a very quiet room and listen to near reference level. In a room with 25 to 30 dB noise floor listening to say 80 dB average, with volume turned up to -15 or even -10, I doubt you can hear a difference between 80 dB and 90 dB SINAD, that is, 0.01 and 0.003% THD+N. Even if you can, then you may find the Marantz more musical because it has higher distortions, but then you may find the opposite is true to you, that's if you can see which one you are listening to. If you can use you eyes, I would bet you can't tell a difference, in a properly done comparison listening session using analog inputs and direct mode. The quality of the source contents and speakers are far more important than the difference between two very similar AVRs of Marantz and Denon.

The music was created by the creator and mastering. Processors with less distortion better represent the signal (music or HT sound tracks).
There are great components with excellent performance. What is needed is better source material.

The evidence is that Denon is the truer product. Failure to attenuate in reconstruction filters can be proffered by some but could cause issues with some systems that modulate into the audible band.

- Rich

 

[WaynesterUK]

I’ve always had Denon AVR’s, just fancied someat different this time.. on my AVRX2200, no matter what I source I listen to, I can’t ever fault about the sound if I’m honest, but I always find (personally) the high frequency’s on most stuff is too harsh or treble laden, even with changing different settings... ‍ Not sure why?

I’ve never had any issues using my AVR with different speakers, could drive it loud no probs

Apart from Arcam Nad Anthem and top end Marantz, which I’ll never be able to afford, I guess I’ll stick with the Denons, unless Sony or Onkyo make anything as good sonically?

 

[WaynesterUK]

I can’t find a review anywhere of a Denon AVR-X4500, what’s the verdict on this receiver?
I really want this one in Silver and it has plenty of power, bit more than the X3600 and X3700, there are a few good deals online so I’m searching around

 

[peng]

I’ve always had Denon AVR’s, just fancied someat different this time.. on my AVRX2200, no matter what I source I listen to, I can’t ever fault about the sound if I’m honest, but I always find (personally) the high frequency’s on most stuff is too harsh or treble laden, even with changing different settings... ‍ Not sure why?

I’ve never had any issues using my AVR with different speakers, could drive it loud no probs

Apart from Arcam Nad Anthem and top end Marantz, which I’ll never be able to afford, I guess I’ll stick with the Denons, unless Sony or Onkyo make anything as good sonically?

Have you tried the following settings to see if it helps with your "treble laden" issue?

- Use Audyssey reference instead of flat.
- Turn Audyssey off, or use bypass so that Audssey EQ would apply to the subwoofer only.
- Turn on DEQ, but leave Dynamic volume off. DEQ really should be if you turn listen loud such as volume -15 or higher.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Have you tried the following settings to see if it helps with your "treble laden" issue?

- Use Audyssey reference instead of flat.
- Turn Audyssey off, or use bypass so that Audssey EQ would apply to the subwoofer only.
- Turn on DEQ, but leave Dynamic volume off. DEQ really should be if you turn listen loud such as volume -15 or higher.

i will try your suggestions thanks..

Dynamic EQ is ON, dynamic volume is OFF

apart from the treble laden sound, I also notice that when I’m watching movies Late at night, that if I turn the volume down, the bass is still quite overpowering and I’m not sure why, then the vocals are too quiet! any ideas?‍ Just don’t want to upset my neighbours

 

[peng]

i will try your suggestions thanks..

Dynamic EQ is ON, dynamic volume is OFF

apart from the treble laden sound, I also notice that when I’m watching movies Late at night, that if I turn the volume down, the bass is still quite overpowering and I’m not sure why, then the vocals are too quiet! any ideas?‍ Just don’t want to upset my neighbours

In that case you can set the offset to 5 dB, 10 dB or even 15 dB. 10 dB should be enough to calm things down. Also, for such late night low level, you should feel free to use dynamic volume. Even the light setting should allow you to hear the vocals.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Cried my eyes out at the end of the DAC section of this review. No manufacturer should be so cruel as to have their customers read reviews like this.

This is also a What HiFi 5* product for 3 years running (3400/3500/3600). They should have known better.

Amp‘s better performance was predictable - but then again nothing to write home about. I concur with @maty that x4500 is a better machine: upgrading x3500 to x4500 did improve the sound quality of the amp substantially (I used external DAC with both of them). However, the sound card is definitely not much better than the one on x3500 and both of them produce noticeable distortions/harshness in movie soundtracks (same with x6500).

All manufacturers of AVR that were reviewed here so far should really get their thing together and learn from Apple‘s dongle and Topping‘s bundles how to make great sounding products at mass market prices.

Hope that other promising AVRs will continue to be scrutinized here.

@amirm, thanks for this in-depth review.

so the Denon AVR-X4500 is no good?
if it’s crap like the X3500, I’d best stop looking at reasonably priced ones online and just get the X3600 or 3700?

 

[peng]

so the Denon AVR-X4500 is no good?
if it’s crap like the X3500, I’d best stop looking at reasonably priced ones online and just get the X3600 or 3700?

I have compared my X3400H that I had for about a week, with my separate power amp and preamps. It sounded just as good. Not crap at all in my opinion. It it sounds crap it would blame the recording/mastering quality of the source, the player and the speakers, not the amp as long as you use it well below its output limits. Example, with pre-out below 1.2 to 1.4 V, it measured as good as the $4,999 Marantz AV8805, that's pretty good if you can get one for $599 even for just 2 channel use.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Hi folks

can anyone give me a comparison between a Denon AVR-X4500 and Marantz SR7013, there’s a guy on Facebook who had a 4500 and while he had it, it went through 2 x PSU’s! He says the SR7013 that he has now blows the Denon away in every single way, but I thought they were almost identical machines?

 

[Urgo]

Hi folks

can anyone give me a comparison between a Denon AVR-X4500 and Marantz SR7013, there’s a guy on Facebook who had a 4500 and while he had it, it went through 2 x PSU’s! He says the SR7013 that he has now blows the Denon away in every single way, but I thought they were almost identical machines?

Each room is a world, anyway I would not take into account the subjective impressions such as the greater "musicality" of the Marantz against the Denon thanks to their hdam, which marketing and forums have widely spread. We have already seen what hdam caused in last year's SR6014 measurements, increased noise and distortion.
If what is intended is a cleaner sound, the Denons have already shown it, although those differences between the two test brands I do not think are audible in the room with the use we usually give our avr. Below the reference volume the differences are minimal.

And if you are not satisfied with the result of those tests, wait until they are carried out on one of this year's Marantz and compare them with the 2020 Denons already measured.

This year Marantz assures that it has improved its measurements a lot, we are waiting for results from ASR.

 

[peng]

Hi folks

can anyone give me a comparison between a Denon AVR-X4500 and Marantz SR7013, there’s a guy on Facebook who had a 4500 and while he had it, it went through 2 x PSU’s! He says the SR7013 that he has now blows the Denon away in every single way, but I thought they were almost identical machines?

The differences (signal chain, from preamp input to power amp output) are:
- 7013 has HDAMs (a unity gain buffer)
- 7013 uses the slow roll off DAC reconstruction filter that would results in a 2.5 dB drop by 20,000 Hz with 44.1 kHz sampling freq.

Power amps are identical.

The guy obviously listened too much to marketing hypes, hearsay and stuff, plus probably more prone to Placebo effects.. Denon measured better, that's a fact. The Marantz sound "better" is a subjective thing at best, if he guy could tell the difference using the DBT protocol. If not, it is not even subjective, but Placebo effects only.

 

[superczar]

Hi folks

can anyone give me a comparison between a Denon AVR-X4500 and Marantz SR7013, there’s a guy on Facebook who had a 4500 and while he had it, it went through 2 x PSU’s! He says the SR7013 that he has now blows the Denon away in every single way, but I thought they were almost identical machines?

I do not have the 2 you are trying to compare but I do have a marantz 6010 and Denon 3500in different rooms
The older 6010 was swapped out for the newer 3500 recently in the main living area.

I honestly can’t tell that the two sound any different - neither was any more (or less) “musical” than the other!
Both sound pretty good to me

 

[Tonyjspr9]

I have compared my X3500H that I had for about a week, with my separate power amp and preamps. It sounded just as good. Not crap at all in my opinion. It it sounds crap it would blame the recording/mastering quality of the source, the player and the speakers, not the amp as long as you use it well below its output limits. Example, with pre-out below 1.2 to 1.4 V, it measured as good as the $4,999 Marantz AV8805, that's pretty good if you can get one for $599 even for just 2 channel use.

I have a pair of Outlaw 2220 monoblocks I was wanting to hook up to the x3500H. After reading your quote I looked at the spec sheet of the 2220's and it states 1.6V for 8ohm. They would be powering Monitor Audio Silver 6's. What would be your opinion on the performance of the Outlaws with the X3500? Thanks.

 

[peng]

I have a pair of Outlaw 2220 monoblocks I was wanting to hook up to the x3500H. After reading your quote I looked at the spec sheet of the 2220's and it states 1.6V for 8ohm. They would be powering Monitor Audio Silver 6's. What would be your opinion on the performance of the Outlaws with the X3500? Thanks.

I used one with my X4400H and am very happy with it. The 1.6 V is for rated output, that is 200 W into 8 ohms.

Monitor Audio recommended 60 to 150 W for the Silver 6, plus the fact that they are more like 4 ohm speakers, may be 5 Ohms?

So it should only take less than 1 V from the X3500H to give those speakers the 150 W they need (maximum recommended!!)
Also, less than 1.4 V is needed to give them 300 W, that's 2X the recommended max recommended for the Silver 6.

I see no issue with the Outlaw 2200 for your application.

 

[Dj7675]

so the Denon AVR-X4500 is no good?
if it’s crap like the X3500, I’d best stop looking at reasonably priced ones online and just get the X3600 or 3700?

I have both an X3500 (living room 2.0 setup) and an X8500 (theater 7.1.6 setup). When I sent the X8500 in to Amir for testing I moved the X3500 to the theater For around 3 weeks. It sounded and worked great. Basically if you don’t go behold the 1.4v on any of these Denons you are going to get 95-103 SINAD. From the tests Amir has done, under normal use it would probably be hard to tell them apart. The X3500 is definitely not crap. If there is an issue with sound being bright/harsh, you need to look at the frequency response at seating position of your speakers. If it is still seems bright to you, you might experiment with the Audyssey app and tilt the curve downward something like this. I would expect all of the X3500/4500/3600/3700 to sound pretty much the same.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Forgive my moment of madness but it occurs to to me that I could quite easily hijack the I2S inputs of this unit's AK4458 (DAC) and add a SPDIF output for the front channels. The modification would require only seven wires, one WM8805 on a small PCB and would effectively turn the AVR into an Audyssey processor that is no longer tied to its poor DAC implementation.

Looking at the schematics, we find convenient test pads and labels for each channel pair.

• DACPCMF: Front channels
• DACPCMS: Surround channels
• DACPCMSB: Rear surround channels
• DACSW2SW1: Subwoofer channels
• DACCRSV: Center channel

I had originally envisioned the only disadvantage of this modification being a lack of volume control from the AVR because the NJU72343s are downstream of the AK4458 but that doesn't quite make sense. We know from Amir's measurements that the DAC begins to clip at high volume but if the NJU72343s comprise the only volume control circuit, then the DAC would be producing full output voltage and clipping at all times.

Since that isn't the case, I wonder if we might be seeing an implementation wherein the NJU72343s handle volume control only as far as unity gain and then the DSP raises its output beyond 0dB, resulting in the clipping seen in Amir's measurements. That would simultaneously make perfect sense and be incredibly silly.

Looking at the analog section block diagram, we can see that the channels are split across two NJU72343s, with the subwoofer outputs on the second. Zone 2 appears to have a somewhat interesting signal path.

Delving deeper into the NJU72343s datasheet and we find some rather uninspiring specifications. At typical listening levels (-15/-20dB), SINAD will be limited to around 93dB and at zero attenuation, 110dB. If AVR-driven volume control of an external DAC is desired, you would be better served by making use of an external (much nicer) PGA4311 and translating the internal IC's commands via microcontroller.

I will be quite busy during the week but intend to perform this little modification when I have some free time. Provided that no unforeseen complications arise, this should be readily applicable to most AVRs and requires little very little experience.

Perhaps I'll give this subject its own thread. That might be fun.

 

[wickflair]

As a newbie to the HT/ "higher end" audio world reading this entire thread was a treat. I have a lot of research to do to fully understand what I have read. I will say at first I was like "oh crap, did I make a bad purchase" and even started looking at the return policy, but the further I read, I think I made a good choice. I do have a few questions though.

1) I have had some issues with going into thermal protection mode. Only when really jamming out at high volume typically rock music. ( -5-0db) Very large room and typically when working out quiet far from the speakers. I am running Emotiva T1+s which are 4ohm which might be part of the problem. Denon support said to set the AVR for 4ohm, but after researching that I didn't like that idea. I have been thinking about getting a power amp for the L/R to take some load off the AVR. Thoughts?

2) If I do go that route would the Emotiva Basx A-300 work well with this AVR?

3) When listening to 2.1 music do you guys typically use reference in audyssey? I have been messing around with the app and think I enjoy the sound better when stopping the frequency range to 300hz or so, but I have a lot more testing to do to figure that out.

 

[Chromatischism]

Welcome to ASR.

1) I have had some issues with going into thermal protection mode. Only when really jamming out at high volume typically rock music. ( -5-0db) Very large room and typically when working out quiet far from the speakers. I am running Emotiva T1+s which are 4ohm which might be part of the problem. Denon support said to set the AVR for 4ohm, but after researching that I didn't like that idea. I have been thinking about getting a power amp for the L/R to take some load off the AVR. Thoughts?

It sounds like you could benefit from one, yes.

2) If I do go that route would the Emotiva Basx A-300 work well with this AVR?

Yes, the input sensitivity is only 1.2V so should reach all of its power quite easily. However it is temporarily unavailable. If you would like to step up for only a modest increase I would recommend looking at this: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...reo-amplifier-ncore-2x250w-4-ohm-p-14278.html. Probably the best bang for the buck right now.

3) When listening to 2.1 music do you guys typically use reference in audyssey? I have been messing around with the app and think I enjoy the sound better when stopping the frequency range to 300hz or so, but I have a lot more testing to do to figure that out.

Yes. Using the Reference setting is the only way to get the app settings to work. I limit to 350 Hz for the best sound in my systems.

 

[trl]

1) As Amir already noticed: "Thermal performance has some issues but not as bad as some other budget AVRs such as Pioneer". By looking at the below pic I realise that the heatsink is not big enough to sustain amplifier's max. output power on a long run, so it is sized only to dissipate heat for short peaks at max. power. Either you will install couple of small fan on top (to suck air from inside to outside) either you will need to lower the output power to prevent thermal shutdown.

Source: https://www.av-online.hu/hazimozi/denon-avr-x3500h-hazimozi-erosito-teszt_2714​

2) Basx A-300 is about two times more powerful than AVR-X3500, so it might be a better match for your room size and your high SPL listening, given your 88 dB SPL @1 Watt per 4 Ohms T1+ speakers.