Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[superczar]

I understood what you were saying the first time, but I am also saying that in this case it does not matter because the XLS 2502 has SINAD must lower than that of the 3500's preamp, in fact also lower than that of the power amp. Your logic would apply if the XLS 2502 has higher, or at least comparable SINAD, but it is lower, much lower.

AVR-X3500H's SINAD at 5 W was 82.6/82.4 dB
XLS 2502 at 5 W, SINAD was 69.8/71.9 dB

The XLS2502 only need 1.4 V for it to reach its rated 440 W, that means at 1.2 V, it would still output a respectable a whopping 320 W!
And the 3500 could do SINAD 95.2/95.3 dB at 1.2 V.

So unless you really need 320 W, I would leave the sensitivity at 1.4 V. If you set it to 0.775 V, the preamp output would be worse because it would spend more time at below 0.8 V and the XLS 2502 would be noisier because of the much higher gain.

I certainly don't need anywhere near that power.. picked it on a whim as I was getting a really good deal on it (~$350 equivalent) and am still sure I will find some use for it - if not with the X3500 then elsewhere
The speakers are fairly sensitive (91db) but apparently they drop to <3 ohms for a fairly wide band between 80-600 hz (Focal Aria 926)

On a side note, I am not sure where my calcs are going wrong - but at 1.4 V setting, I have had to set the gain knob at max on the Crown but it's still about 5-6 db less than other channels (directly driven from X3500) while testing multi-channel

Set to 0.775V, the LR matches the other channels with the gain knob set to about 65% although I would have expected this to be more around 30-35%

It's not the amp or a defective AVR either - saw something similar with a Marantz SR6010 and PM17 Integrated too where the PM17 o/p in amp mode ( preamp de-coupled) was 6-6.5db lower than the internal amps on the SR6010.

 

[peng]

I certainly don't need anywhere near that power.. picked it on a whim as I was getting a really good deal on it (~$350 equivalent) and am still sure I will find some use for it - if not with the X3500 then elsewhere
The speakers are fairly sensitive (91db) but apparently they drop to <3 ohms for a fairly wide band between 80-600 hz (Focal Aria 926)

On a side note, I am not sure where my calcs are going wrong - but at 1.4 V setting, I have had to set the gain knob at max on the Crown but it's still about 5-6 db less than other channels (directly driven from X3500) while testing multi-channel

Set to 0.775V, the LR matches the other channels with the gain knob set to about 65% although I would have expected this to be more around 30-35%

It's not the amp or a defective AVR either - saw something similar with a Marantz SR6010 and PM17 Integrated too where the PM17 o/p in amp mode ( preamp de-coupled) was 6-6.5db lower than the internal amps on the SR6010.

Did you run Audyssey with all speakers including the Aria powered by the AVR? If you did, it should have level matched all the channels. If after that you use the FL/FR preouts with the XLS2502, then I would expect the need to adjust the level trims for the FL/FR by about -3.5 dB from whatever Audyssey set them to, because of the higher gain of the XLS2502 when the gain is set to maximum.

With those gain knobs, I would always set them to maximum unless there is a good reason to turn it down. If you turn it down from maximum, unless it has a digital display it would be hard to tell what the gain would be.

 

[superczar]

Did you run Audyssey with all speakers including the Aria powered by the AVR? If you did, it should have level matched all the channels. If after that you use the FL/FR preouts with the XLS2502, then I would expect the need to adjust the level trims for the FL/FR by about -3.5 dB from whatever Audyssey set them to, because of the higher gain of the XLS2502 when the gain is set to maximum.

With those gain knobs, I would always set them to maximum unless there is a good reason to turn it down. If you turn it down from maximum, unless it has a digital display it would be hard to tell what the gain would be.

Shucks, It hadn’t struck me till you pointed it out. Those gain knobs at anything less than max would actually be attenuating the incoming signal on an amp
A Rather obvious thing , but many of us tend to view any kind of audio knobs as a volume control on an integrated meant to be kept around the midway mark and never at max.

Guess the tedious audyssey rerun is my punishment

Edit: This reminds me why I like ASR.. On any other audio forum, I would have been chastised and branded for so many things by now
a) Heathen!!! How dare one replace an AB Integrated with class D PA Amp!!
b) Blasphemy - you do not deserve to post here for having committed the grave sin of using an AVR for stereo playback

 

[superczar]

Did you run Audyssey with all speakers including the Aria powered by the AVR? If you did, it should have level matched all the channels. If after that you use the FL/FR preouts with the XLS2502, then I would expect the need to adjust the level trims for the FL/FR by about -3.5 dB from whatever Audyssey set them to, because of the higher gain of the XLS2502 when the gain is set to maximum.

With those gain knobs, I would always set them to maximum unless there is a good reason to turn it down. If you turn it down from maximum, unless it has a digital display it would be hard to tell what the gain would be.

Just to add, i changed the sensitivity to normal (1.4V) and gain to max (or more like attenuation to 0)
it now works as expected.
Audyssey set the channel gain to -5db on LR and -3.5 on Centre which is in line with what I would have expected.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Whether or not the external amp actually improves (or deteriorates) the sound is questionable - although realistically, it is probably the same

 

[peng]

Whether or not the external amp actually improves (or deteriorates) the sound is questionable - although realistically, it is probably the same

One thing for sure though, with that amp in the loop, you don't have to worry about clipping under any condition as long as you keep the volume at or below 0, because you would have gained 6 dB or a little more of headroom vs the internal amps.

 

[Carnajo]

2) The Denon AVR-X4700H, X3700H, X3600H all show very good SINAD at levels lower than 0.5W so if you listen with volume lower than -20 it is good news for you. Compare that to the $6,000 Arcam AVR850, you can see that it did better than the Denon at higher than 2 V but much worse at below 1 V. So for people who don't get anywhere close to 2 V, the Denons actually have much better measurements in this particular test.

Is there a way of knowing the voltage of the pre-outs (I mean aside from using a voltmeter)? As in -20db = 1.2V or something akin to that?

 

[Carnajo]

That is fine, but to be clear, the review exposed a real problem that is not a common use case. I agree that for most (those using 5 or more channels) will not have an issue. For this reason, I bought a 3700H for use as a preamp. Prior to the isolation of the issue, I would not have purchased the 3700.

- Rich

To a layperson... under which use case would the problem occur? Why would it affect 2 channel listening for example and not when using 5 or more?

 

[peng]

Is there a way of knowing the voltage of the pre-outs (I mean aside from using a voltmeter)? As in -20db = 1.2V or something akin to that?

Yes, if you know what it is at say volume "0", or 80 (Amir typically go with 82.5), you can calculate it for other volume positions. I use Excel spreadsheet to do it but you can use online calculator such as the one linked below:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm

Let's say after audyssey auto set up your speaker trim level for the FL is 0, if you punch in -20 to the calculator, you will get a voltage ratio loss of 0.1 so if the preout voltage is 1 V at volume 0 then at -20 you will get -0.1 V, so on and so forth...

You can then measure it with a digital voltmeter and you will see the numbers will be very close, likely within +/- 0.5% to 1%, at volume positions below 0 anyway, depending on the accuracy of the meter and how stable your test signal is too.

 

[RichB]

To a layperson... under which use case would the problem occur? Why would it affect 2 channel listening for example and not when using 5 or more?

The performance degrades with less than 7 speakers connected. Using two channels, then down-mixing logic is engaged when the source is 2.0 and the HDMI handshake makes the AVR think there are 7 channels active.

- Rich

 

[Carnajo]

The performance degrades with less than 7 speakers connected. Using two channels, then down-mixing logic is engaged when the source is 2.0 and the HDMI handshake makes the AVR think there are 7 channels active.

- Rich

Thanks, I reread Amir's note and I understand it better now. This won't for example affect a 2.0 source coming from HDMI into the AVR if you have 7 speakers connected. Or to be more specific if I have a source device (e.g. nvidia shield or even TV's ARC) going to the AVR playing a 2 channel source (say spotify music) and playing it in stereo (so no upmixing) I won't have this issue if I have multiple speakers connected. Likewise if I only have 2 speakers connected and I have a 2 channel source coming from an optical input (e.g. Chrome Cast Audio) I won't have this issue either. It's only when it tries to downmix a multi-channel source (even if it is fake multichannel, i.e. a stereo source that the HDMI makes the AVR see as 7 channel).

 

[Carnajo]

Yes, if you know what it is at say volume "0", or 80 (Amir typically go with 82.5), you can calculate it for other volume positions. I use Excel spreadsheet to do it but you can use online calculator such as the one linked below:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm

Let's say after audyssey auto set up your speaker trim level for the FL is 0, if you punch in -20 to the calculator, you will get a voltage ratio loss of 0.1 so if the preout voltage is 1 V at volume 0 then at -20 you will get -0.1 V, so on and so forth...

You can then measure it with a digital voltmeter and you will see the numbers will be very close, likely within +/- 0.5% to 1%, at volume positions below 0 anyway, depending on the accuracy of the meter and how stable your test signal is too.

(EDIT): That's a voltage ratio, so I assume you meant I would get 0.1V and not -0.1V, or in other words -20dB output is 0.1V if 0dB is 1V. If 0dB is 2V then -20dB is 0.2V?

Thanks!

Side question... does 0 equate to 80? I thought 0 equated to 100 (i.e. max volume before internal clipping).

I think most Denon's have 1.2V as the nominal output, so I assume that would mean at 0 dB the output is 1.2V?

 

[peng]

Thanks!

Side question... does 0 equate to 80? I thought 0 equated to 100 (i.e. max volume before internal clipping).

I think most Denon's have 1.2V as the nominal output, so I assume that would mean at 0 dB the output is 1.2V?

Denon and Marantz AVRs specifications say 1.2 V without stating any such conditions (examples: input voltage, output voltage) so I don't think you can assume 0 dB is 1.2 V, though in some cases you will that it could close..

A reliable way is to use Amir's measurements.

Look at the X3500H as example again:

1.99V at 82.5, so at 80, that's -2.5 dB, enter that into the calculator I linked before and you get the ratio of 0.75 so the voltage would be 1.99V*0.75 = 1.49 V so in this case it is not even close.

Now if you dial it down to 76.5, that is a drop of 6 dB from 82.5, enter -6 into the linked calculator and you get a ratio of 0.5 so the voltage would be 1.99V*0.5 = 0.995 V.

So you can see that the calculated result was verified by Amir's measurements, to the 3 rd decimal place!

Using the same method, you will see that Vol = 78 should get you close to 1.2 V.

In your application, it may vary somewhat to Amir's because it depends a lot of the input level, and that would vary depending on your media source contents and the media playback device.

 

[Rickydenim]

Does anyone know what the headphone output impedance is?

 

[Magnusen]

Good day! There is a problem with the Denon X3400H receiver when connecting to a computer via HDMI.
Windows 10 audio output settings 24 bit 48000 Hz 7.1 (all 8 channels are valid) When playing sound in the right-hand front column, there is a crash. Artifacts of the resampling. There are no such artifacts in 24-bit 192000hz mode. In 16-bit 48000Hz mode, the same problem occurs. In 16-bit 44100Hz mode, there is no problem. Perhaps the problem is in the firmware.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Guys - just want a yes or a no

Been offered a brand new (old stock) Denon AVRX-4500 for a great price, now as I’m coming from an AVRX-2200 which I bought in March 2016, the 4500 is from 2018, sonically will be superior to my old model? I’ve also got a chance to buy a AVRX-3700, the 3600 is hard to find for a lesser price

Out of all these sonically, which would you go for?

The 4500 model is really the best price for me, but if it’s crap... I won’t be buying it

 

[Certainkindoffool]

Guys - just want a yes or a no

Been offered a brand new (old stock) Denon AVRX-4500 for a great price, now as I’m coming from an AVRX-2200 which I bought in March 2016, the 4500 is from 2018, sonically will be superior to my old model? I’ve also got a chance to buy a AVRX-3700, the 3600 is hard to find for a lesser price

Out of all these sonically, which would you go for?

The 4500 model is really the best price for me, but if it’s crap... I won’t be buying it

I was in the same dilemma and went with the x3700h. Between usb spec, full pre-out capability, and that I found it for less than what an x3600h was going for, I was sold.

...i doubt the 4500 is crap though!

 

[WaynesterUK]

I was in the same dilemma and went with the x3700h. Between usb spec, full pre-out capability, and that I found it for less than what an x3600h was going for, I was sold.

...i doubt the 4500 is crap though!

Is there a Marantz model that anyone would recommend that isn’t crap? As a lot of Amirs awesome reviews don’t seem to rate them very much... I’ve always had Denon and want an AVR that’s a bit more musical sounding (but within budget) coz I’m broke

 

[Certainkindoffool]

Is there a Marantz model that anyone would recommend that isn’t crap? As a lot of Amirs awesome reviews don’t seem to rate them very much... I’ve always had Denon and want an AVR that’s a bit more musical sounding (but within budget) coz I’m broke

IMO, musicality is - assuming proper functionality, low distortion, and no clipping - just the inherent equalization of a product. I would suggest playing around with eq in your present system and not go searching for it through component switching.

Using a bit of EQ with an RME ADI2 and customizing its loudness curve made a world of difference in making my nc400 amps more musical!

 

[peng]

Is there a Marantz model that anyone would recommend that isn’t crap? As a lot of Amirs awesome reviews don’t seem to rate them very much... I’ve always had Denon and want an AVR that’s a bit more musical sounding (but within budget) coz I’m broke

Amir never really said they were crap, just that their SINAD were significantly lower than many of the ASR measured desktop DACs. But that does not mean that in your room, 75-80 dB SINAD (the Marantz models measure so far) will sound different than the 95-100 dB SINAD (the Denons) in direct mode using analog inputs of HDMI inputs playing contents at 96 kHz or higher sampling frequency.

If you prefer Marantz and the lower SINAD of the AV8805, 7705 and SR6014 still bothers you, then based on measurements published by Marantz and Audioholics, the SR8015 is the only safe bet at this moment in time.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Amir never really said they were crap, just that their SINAD were significantly lower than many of the ASR measured desktop DACs. But that does not mean that in your room, 75-80 dB SINAD (the Marantz models measure so far) will sound different than the 95-100 dB SINAD (the Denons) in direct mode using analog inputs of HDMI inputs playing contents at 96 kHz or higher sampling frequency.

If you prefer Marantz and the lower SINAD of the AV8805, 7705 and SR6014 still bothers you, then based on measurements published by Marantz and Audioholics, the SR8015 is the only safe bet at this moment in time.

Can you explain the above in simple terms for a non technical person?

I will be listening to 50% music and watching movies, my current equipment is here


My CD player is connected via analogue to use the Marantz DAC and not my AVR


LIVING ROOM SETUP

Panasonic TX-55CX802 Television
Amazon Fire TV Cube
Apple TV Box
Denon AVR-X2200W
Van Damme Hi Fi Speaker Cables
Monitor Audio Bronze 500 Floorstanders
(For Main front speakers)
Monitor Audio Bronze C150 Centre Speaker
Monitor Audio Bronze 50’s on stands
(For rear surrounds)
BK XXLS400 FF Subwoofer
Marantz CD63 MkII KI Signature CD Player
Pioneer BDP-180 Blu Ray Player
Sony PS4 Pro Games Console