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Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
That would be 0.0017% THD+N, I would consider that clean. At -20 the output will be much lower than 1.2 V. In Amir's test, with vol at 76.5, that is -3.5 when the output was at 1 V.
Amir's test, with vol at 82.5. THD+N is very bad (from HDMI)
Why did the coax test below give better results? Before that, it was worse at the same volume.
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Where did you get that? I just looked again and HDMI at 82.5, SINAD was 73.645 dB for Ch1 and for Coax, it was 73.61 dB for Ch1 so the difference was negligible.
Then he measured it at vol 76.5 with Coax only, with much better SINAD, he did not do the same with HDMI, but it is reasonable to assume it would be about the same, based on the comparison done at vol. 82.5.
Conclusions
It goes without saying that new measurements completely changes my outlook on AVR-X4700H. It now ranks in the upper tier of home theater AVRs. Not only that, the company behind it is excellent to work with. Despite my harsh original review, they came to the table ready to work through this with no ill will. I am especially appreciative of Rainer Finck of Denon/Marantz Europe who spent many hours with me on the phone and in email to brainstorm. He was also the conduit to Denon Engineering in Japan which worked hard to chase any theory we came up with. It was also a pleasure to work with Sound United personnel in US in final resolution and planning of this update. This was one of the best experiences I have had working with a company on a review!
Anyway, I am happy to now recommend the AVR-X4700H. I will take all the eggs you want to throw at me for not doing so the last go around.
Conclusions
It goes without saying that new measurements completely changes my outlook on AVR-X4700H. It now ranks in the upper tier of home theater AVRs. Not only that, the company behind it is excellent to work with. Despite my harsh original review, they came to the table ready to work through this with no ill will. I am especially appreciative of Rainer Finck of Denon/Marantz Europe who spent many hours with me on the phone and in email to brainstorm. He was also the conduit to Denon Engineering in Japan which worked hard to chase any theory we came up with. It was also a pleasure to work with Sound United personnel in US in final resolution and planning of this update. This was one of the best experiences I have had working with a company on a review!
Anyway, I am happy to now recommend the AVR-X4700H. I will take all the eggs you want to throw at me for not doing so the last go around.
That is fine, but to be clear, the review exposed a real problem that is not a common use case. I agree that for most (those using 5 or more channels) will not have an issue. For this reason, I bought a 3700H for use as a preamp. Prior to the isolation of the issue, I would not have purchased the 3700.
- Rich
My understanding of this graph is you can turn up your receiver with amps connected to 80 or so (which is basically reference level) and get excellent performance. You can configure your volume to show 0-98 or have 0 to be reference level. Reference level is very loud. I would say most people listen much much lower than that. When you go over that level, with the amps connected, it causes problems. The key takeaway is very good performance up to reference level. With the NAD T758 V3 for example, you get horrible performance if at -6db below reference. So the Denon X series seem to do their job just fine to me.
Thank you so much. Now I understand. I have never exceeded -25 dB at all. Very loud.
You question has been answered but I would add the following:
1) That graph did not show 60% distortion at any volume level. It shows SINAD of better than 70 dB even at 2 V, in fact the dashboard shows about 76 dB at reference level. 76 dB is 0.016 % total harmonic distortions plus noise.
2) The Denon AVR-X4700H, X3700H, X3600H all show very good SINAD at levels lower than 0.5W so if you listen with volume lower than -20 it is good news for you. Compare that to the $6,000 Arcam AVR850, you can see that it did better than the Denon at higher than 2 V but much worse at below 1 V. So for people who don't get anywhere close to 2 V, the Denons actually have much better measurements in this particular test.
I put it wrong. Distortion increases dramatically at 60% volume. My volume level is -20 dB on a scale of -78 dB +18 dB (Denon settings)
So i just swapped out an old Marantz PM17 with a Crown XLS 2502 that is connected to the LR pre-out on the Denon X3500.
My listening levels are usually around -25 (relative scale) and I am assuming the volume scale used here is absolute .
I am not sure if I am missing something but I was unable to find measurements that would indicate how the DAC and pre-amp output fare as you go up the volume scale.
I could however gather from the comments that the performance is at a reasonable level as long as the volumes are reasonably below 78db (absolute) or so
What I am trying to determine is that if I were to set the new amp to 0.775V sensitivity instead of the default 1.4V- and given my usual low volume levels, I should expect a reasonably clean output from the Denon DAC?
Alternatively, I could plugin a Chromecast Audio to the CD -In analog on the Denon which presumably bypasses the DAC in Direct mode - and the performance limiting factor in such a case would be the CCAs own output quality. Is that correct?
For context, I have three use cases
1) Movies - where the Denon DACs are good enough for me
2) Casual listening with Spotify/ Apple music with an Apple TV as source - In Auto mode with Audyssey engaged.
3) The third use case, once in a while is a relatively serious listening session (I neither have nor claim to be golden-eared)
- Tidal Hifi or Master as the source and Denon set to Direct mode .
- Streaming done via HEOS but I could stream it to an unused CCA
The question above pertains to only (3)
My listening levels are usually around -25 (relative scale) and I am assuming the volume scale used here is absolute .
I am not sure if I am missing something but I was unable to find measurements that would indicate how the DAC and pre-amp output fare as you go up the volume scale.
I could however gather from the comments that the performance is at a reasonable level as long as the volumes are reasonably below 78db (absolute) or so
What I am trying to determine is that if I were to set the new amp to 0.775V sensitivity instead of the default 1.4V- and given my usual low volume levels, I should expect a reasonably clean output from the Denon DAC?
Alternatively, I could plugin a Chromecast Audio to the CD -In analog on the Denon which presumably bypasses the DAC in Direct mode - and the performance limiting factor in such a case would be the CCAs own output quality. Is that correct?
For context, I have three use cases
1) Movies - where the Denon DACs are good enough for me
2) Casual listening with Spotify/ Apple music with an Apple TV as source - In Auto mode with Audyssey engaged.
3) The third use case, once in a while is a relatively serious listening session (I neither have nor claim to be golden-eared)
- Tidal Hifi or Master as the source and Denon set to Direct mode .
- Streaming done via HEOS but I could stream it to an unused CCA
The question above pertains to only (3)
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Couple of random thoughts:
-Review of the XLS2502 shows quite a bit worse performance than the internal amps provide. At your moderate listening levels, are you sure you need the extra power? I have the XLS1502 for a sub and it works great, but I do hear a little hiss which bothers me a bit. I attached the x3700 power test which in 2 channel provides quite a bit of power. The Amps in the Denon receivers have shown they are good, even relative to many external amps.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../crown-xls2502-stereo-amplifier-review.10627/
-Amir has tested Direct mode I believe on several Denon‘s and found now difference in performance which I thought was interesting. Not sure how you are using Audyssey in your system, but the benefits of using it at least below 300hz with the app will result in better overall sound for sure. At least that is my experience.
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The 3500 should have SINAD above 90 dB in this scenario depending on how high you crank the volume, but you obvious know that already. I am not sure if you are aware that ASR has measured two Crown amps including the XLS 2502 and the SINAD measurements would indicate that the internal amps of the 3500 should perform better, except obviously the Crown has much higher output.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../crown-xls2502-stereo-amplifier-review.10627/
I could be completely wrong - and also the level matching I do for subjective listening tests is via a phone app so not particularly accurate..
And yes, there is a noticeable hiss with the Crown if you hold the ears close to the tweeter.
The thought process for the amp being that with it set to a higher sensitivity, I would need the volume to be set to a lower threshold on the AVR which seems to perform better around the <1V mark than say around 1.5 or so.
Subjectively, I have been having a go at at since this evening with a few tracks I know well and noted the following .
Hurt (Johnny Cash) - There are two separate guitars playing on the L /R channels.
With the external amp, the distinction between the two is pretty clear, not so much with the internal.
Landslide (Fleetwod Mac) - There is a faint quiver on Stevie Nicks' vocals during some passages - a bit more noticeable with the external
These differences may very well be attributable to subtle level differences or to the approx 15 min time lag (and the whisky consumed in the interim)
Or to the extra headroom argument some make (although I am yet to hear a well thought out explanation for it )
I just wish today were a Saturday so that I could try out some more permutations and combinations
I understood what you were saying the first time, but I am also saying that in this case it does not matter because the XLS 2502 has SINAD must lower than that of the 3500's preamp, in fact also lower than that of the power amp. Your logic would apply if the XLS 2502 has higher, or at least comparable SINAD, but it is lower, much lower.
AVR-X3500H's SINAD at 5 W was 82.6/82.4 dB
XLS 2502 at 5 W, SINAD was 69.8/71.9 dB
The XLS2502 only need 1.4 V for it to reach its rated 440 W, that means at 1.2 V, it would still output a respectable a whopping 320 W!
And the 3500 could do SINAD 95.2/95.3 dB at 1.2 V.
So unless you really need 320 W, I would leave the sensitivity at 1.4 V. If you set it to 0.775 V, the preamp output would be worse because it would spend more time at below 0.8 V and the XLS 2502 would be noisier because of the much higher gain.
