Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[yurqqa]

I have Denon x3500h and have recently bought KEF R3.
It sound nice. And I think i should've just stopped here, but I've checked some forums and started thinking about the separate amplifier for the speakers using Denon as a pre-amp (maybe external DAC separately for music), since KEF R3 apparently will sound "at their best" when they ahve a lot of power.

Fortunately I got myself interested into audio and acoustics, found this forum. So I'm reading the books recommended here, reading this forum and trying to decide if I get some reasonable improvements from some changes in my setup before making any purchase.

I got a good answer here how to estimate the amplifier power needed for the speakers (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../how-much-power-do-you-need.21801/post-726290).

So, my result was around 100 W at 120 Hz and up to ca. 200 W during 25-120 Hz sweep.
So I'm guessing I need around 100 W at 8 Ohm and 200 W at 3,2 Ohm (lowest R3 resistance).
And it's basically the limit of the x3500h characteristics.

I suspect it should some headroom for peaks, but since it's at the limit I still have doubts if I get some improvement from adding Hypex NC252 based amplifier (NC400 and purifi seem like an overkill).

Could someone share an opinion if there's and potential improvement I could get or the only improvement will be a couple of nice-looking equipment on my shelf ?

 

[peng]

So, my result was around 100 W at 120 Hz and up to ca. 200 W during 25-120 Hz sweep.
So I'm guessing I need around 100 W at 8 Ohm and 200 W at 3,2 Ohm (lowest R3 resistance).
And it's basically the limit of the x3500h characteristics.

I think you should just use the Crown audio calculator if you want to be on the conservative side, that is, not assuming room gain. For sensitivity, use 84 to 85 dB instead of the specified 87 dB just to allow for the impedance dips between 20-800 Hz. Whatever you got from that link seem unnecessarily complicated. Be careful with the headroom thing, the Crown audio calculator has a 3 dB headroom entered by default. It is better to remove it, i.e. make it 0, to avoid confusing yourself.

So please do that and let us know the new result.

Could someone share an opinion if there's and potential improvement I could get or the only improvement will be a couple of nice-looking equipment on my shelf ?

If depends on what that calculator shows, and your desire SPL is a huge factor. If for example, the calculator shows you need 300 W to hit reference level, that's close to the R3's limit, then if the max spl you can tolerate is 10 dB below reference (I certainly am), then 30 W will be enough and the 100 W AVR will give you some healthy headroom already.

 

[yurqqa]

I think you should just use the Crown audio calculator

Thanks.
I saw the reference to this calculator at lot of places, but for me "Desired level at listener distance" is a bit of baffling.
I have no idea how many dBs do I want at the listener's place - should I measure it ? Should I just have some kind of feeling about it ? Cause I don't.
That's why I like the method from diyaudio.com forums - I just listened to several pieces and left the maximum volume that I used - it's simple and logical.

 

[peng]

Thanks.
I saw the reference to this calculator at lot of places, but for me "Desired level at listener distance" is a bit of baffling.
I have no idea how many dBs do I want at the listener's place - should I measure it ? Should I just have some kind of feeling about it ? Cause I don't.
That's why I like the method from diyaudio.com forums - I just listened to several pieces and left the maximum volume that I used - it's simple and logical.

Yes you can try to measure it with a meter such as the popular Radio Shack 33-2055, use C weighting slow, it will still jump around but it should give you an idea on the average level you listen to.

Or just try and imagine how it compares to what you hear in a good movie cinema watching some Star War movies. That would be about 85 dB with 20 dB peaks, so 105 dB maximum. If nothing else, your volume setting can also give you a good idea. After running auto setup/Audyssey, your X3500H would likely get you close to reference level with volume set to 0, but you have to double check the trim level settings and do your math.

I did follow the link, but I didn't see any post that tell you how to do it, are you sure you linked the right one. If yes, which post should I read.

 

[yurqqa]

I did follow the link, but I didn't see any post that tell you how to do it, are you sure you linked the right one. If yes, which post should I read.

Sorry, the link was leading to the middle of discussion.
The main idea is described in the first 2 posts:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-voltage-power-speakers.html

 

[peng]

Sorry, the link was leading to the middle of discussion.
The main idea is described in the first 2 posts:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-voltage-power-speakers.html

Thank you, read it. I am not sure if his math is right. He didn't show his calculations so if I try to check it I would be guessing. There are good reasons why those online calculator such as Crown audio's are popular. They are simple to use, the only hard part is, as you mentioned, people don't know what is the maximum SPL they would need. But if using a spl meter is not an option then one can simply go conservative and enter 105 dB, the maximum peak per THX standard. If half as loud is good enough, then you may subtract 6 to 10 dB, as that range, according to some experts, is what would cause most people to perceive half as loud.

Or if you want to have better accuracy then you can just use your favorite maximum volume setting and the trim level settings to figure out your maximum spl requirement. The reason you can do in this way is, according to THX:

"THX Certified Audio products are designed to let you experience movies the way they were meant to be heard. On every THX Certified AV Receiver the “0” on the volume dial represents THX Reference Level, the exact volume level used by the moviemakers and sound artists in the studio."
THX Certified AV Receivers – best-in-class audio quality

Very few AVRs are THX certified, definitely not your Denon, but they do follow the standard so you can in fact relay on the volume setting:

For example, if you maximum volume setting is -10, level trim is -1, then your maximum SPL would be about -10-1 = -11 dB below reference level of 105 dB, or 105-11 = 94 dB. Now you can enter this number into those online calculator. It saves you playing so those tones and taking voltage measurements. It works, I have also use REW's tone generator and measure voltages, the results are close.

The only drawback of those calculator is that they are all based on 8 Ohms, same with Pano's method, to calculate Power (Watts). He seem to assume an impedance of 8 Ohm (or could have been 4 as the math seem to work for 4 Ohm, I am not sure, you have to ask him). I am also not sure if his use of -12 dB FS is correct for such purpose, if he provided the rationale and math then I must have somehow missed them.

The inability for those calculator to allow for impedance value input it the main the reason I created my own calculator using Excel. My calculator allows one to enter any impedance values.

A couple more links if you are interested in SPL requirements:
THX reference level explained - Acoustic Frontiers
WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX

Or, forget all the hassle, just grab a 200 W/300 W 8/4 Ohm power amp with 29 dB gain or higher and call it a day. You can't have too much power, that's true to some extent.

 

[goldenears]

Lots of sensible commenters that I trust the opinion of have written that they couldn't hear a difference when they bought external amplification, and that makes sense to me logically because amps nowadays are so much more accurate than any speaker (unless you have them turned up to the point of clipping which should be obvious).

I have an X3500H and pretty much never go over -20dB on the volume (usually it's at around -35dB), so personally I don't think I'd get anything out of an external amp. 0dB would hurt my ears and shake the house. My Kef Q900s are 4dB more sensitive than your R3 going on the specs though.

I think you should have a fair bit of headroom already, especially if you have a sub to lighten the load on the X3500H - bass is what takes most of the amplifier power. What volume level is your Denon usually at?

Personally I would be buying room treatment or a second sub to even out the bass response, before amplification.

I don't know your setup but I bet you'd get much more audible results doing either of those things.

 

[yurqqa]

But if using a spl meter is not an option then one can simply go conservative and enter 105 dB, the maximum peak per THX standard. If half as loud is good enough, then you may subtract 6 to 10 dB, as that range, according to some experts, is what would cause most people to perceive half as loud.

The issue is I come back to something around 100 - 150 W at 8 Ohm and still don't know if there's some benefit from going higher than 3500's 105 W.

And since I live in the apartment, the sub is out of the question. R3 bass is as low as I can go without making my neighbors my biggest enemy.

What volume level is your Denon usually at?

For older music (before loudness war went into full swing) it's -10.. -5 dB (some classical at 0) and for newer music -20...-15 dB.

 

[goldenears]

The issue is I come back to something around 100 - 150 W at 8 Ohm and still don't know if there's some benefit from going higher than 3500's 105 W.

And since I live in the apartment, the sub is out of the question. R3 bass is as low as I can go without making my neighbors my biggest enemy.


For older music (before loudness war went into full swing) it's -10.. -5 dB (some classical at 0) and for newer music -20...-15 dB.

Hmm well you're closer to the limits than I am, but I still think if you're not clipping then you're probably wasting money.

A sub doesn't automatically shake the walls. It just fills out the spectrum. I like having a sub even at low volumes. I guess it also depends on what kind of music you like, lots of stuff I listen to is electronic and sounds wrong and you miss a lot without 30-80Hz.

Also my neighbors closest to the sub are dicks so I couldn't care less if they're happy or not.

 

[peng]

The issue is I come back to something around 100 - 150 W at 8 Ohm and still don't know if there's some benefit from going higher than 3500's 105 W.

And since I live in the apartment, the sub is out of the question. R3 bass is as low as I can go without making my neighbors my biggest enemy.


For older music (before loudness war went into full swing) it's -10.. -5 dB (some classical at 0) and for newer music -20...-15 dB.

Based on the info you have provided so far, I think an amp, a really good one, would help when you listen with volume higher than -15, depending on the contents. It shouldn't be night and day kind of different, but with bass heavy contents combined with higher dynamics there could be audible improvements. As you know, its not about the average power output required for the average SPL, but its the peak, 10 dB peaks = 10X power needed. 100X for 20 dB peaks. I don't think 15-20 dB peaks would be there frequent and/or last long enough to bother your neighbors.

 

[yurqqa]

Based on the info you have provided so far, I think an amp, a really good one, would help when you listen with volume higher than -15, depending on the contents. It shouldn't be night and day kind of different, but with bass heavy contents combined with higher dynamics there could be audible improvements. As you know, its not about the average power output required for the average SPL, but its the peak, 10 dB peaks = 10X power needed. 100X for 20 dB peaks. I don't think 15-20 dB peaks would be there frequent and/or last long enough to bother your neighbors.

Thank you.
So I'll just look for aesthetically pleasing amplifier, so that even if there's no improvement in sound, I'll still be happy.

 

[rajdori]

I am using F/L/Center pre-outs from x3500h. Other speakers are powered by x3500h. In this scenario, it is clear that all of audio processing happens in x3500h.

What if I use an external Streamer+DAC? And continue to use external AMP as well... in that case, will Audyssey processing still be applied to all speaker ouputs?

 

[rajdori]

Lots of sensible commenters that I trust the opinion of have written that they couldn't hear a difference when they bought external amplification, and that makes sense to me logically because amps nowadays are so much more accurate than any speaker (unless you have them turned up to the point of clipping which should be obvious).

I have an X3500H and pretty much never go over -20dB on the volume (usually it's at around -35dB), so personally I don't think I'd get anything out of an external amp. 0dB would hurt my ears and shake the house. My Kef Q900s are 4dB more sensitive than your R3 going on the specs though.

I think you should have a fair bit of headroom already, especially if you have a sub to lighten the load on the X3500H - bass is what takes most of the amplifier power. What volume level is your Denon usually at?

Personally I would be buying room treatment or a second sub to even out the bass response, before amplification.

I don't know your setup but I bet you'd get much more audible results doing either of those things.

I have a very different experience.

For 10+ years, I thought so and never bothered with an external amp with Denon AVRs. Adding external amp - B&K Sonata Video 5x100w - made a HUGE difference to my system. The difference is large enough, that my wife, son everyone noticed. The speakers completely opened up. I assume it depends on speakers as well. Though my front and center speakers (Energy Veritas v1.8s and Veritas v2.0ci) are not known to be power hungry - they still hugely benefited by this external amp.

 

[Chromatischism]

I am using F/L/Center pre-outs from x3500h. Other speakers are powered by x3500h. In this scenario, it is clear that all of audio processing happens in x3500h.

What if I use an external Streamer+DAC? And continue to use external AMP as well... in that case, will Audyssey processing still be applied to all speaker ouputs?

If you're connecting an external device digitally (optical, coax, HDMI) then Audyssey and everything is applied, of course. That is how our Chromecasts, Apple TVs, Shields, game consoles, etc, work. I believe that is also the case with analog (turntable, etc) but the AVR would do an ADC on the incoming signal before proceeding, which while sacrilegious to the audiophile community, shouldn't audibly degrade things. And in any case, the audible benefits would vastly outweigh any perceived downside.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Prospective buyers of projectors such as the Viewsonic PX728-4K might be interested to know that the X3500H is capable of passing a 240Hz 1080p input.

While the bandwidth requirements are identical to those of 4K at 60Hz, many Denon AVRs with HDMI 2.0 support do not have this capability.

 

[bluesky636]

I certainly have no complaints with my 3500.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

You mean use this giant thing as just a preamp?

Yes use it as a pre amp?….opinions welcomed

A Cheap Crazy Chefs recipe for equalization ….,

Serves 4-6 people
Preheat room to 68 degrees F*
Serve with Fava beans and a fine Chianti


INGREDIENTS …

pick up a Denon with xt 32 for about $100…. .

Audyssey App (already own)

Gustard x16 dac (already own)

Toppings PA5 amp ( already own)

Tekton SET speakers ( already own)

DIRECTIONS…

1. Use pure direct to Gustard Mqa dac
2. Pre~out to Toppings PA5 amp. (stereo only)
3. Run room equalization
4. Adjust Parametric equalization to taste.
5. Repeat as necessary.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yes use it as a pre amp?….opinions welcomed

A Cheap Crazy Chefs recipe for equalization ….,

Serves 4-6 people
Preheat room to 68 degrees F*
Serve with Fava beans and a fine Chianti


INGREDIENTS …

pick up a Denon with xt 32 for about $100…. .

Audyssey App (already own)

Gustard x16 dac (already own)

Toppings PA5 amp ( already own)

Tekton SET speakers ( already own)

DIRECTIONS…

1. Use pure direct to Gustard Mqa dac
2. Pre~out to Toppings PA5 amp. (stereo only)
3. Run room equalization
4. Adjust Parametric equalization to taste.
5. Repeat as necessary.

Pure Direct disables room correction.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Then stereo?.. or does that disable the dac

 

[Chromatischism]

Then stereo?.. or does that disable the dac

Stereo would be the correct mode for 2.0/2.1

Are you trying to bypass the DAC?