Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[maty]

I have always noticed a difference. Increasing after my mods. With my second-hand AVR Marant SR4500 it was evident when it came to my hands but now the difference is much more audible. The improvements (in and out) have always focused on reducing noise and interferences.

 

[zuli]

The DAC portion doesn't change with and without that mode so I say it is not going to make a difference in these measurements either.

Well, I think it should make a difference. If you are using an analog input, with pure direct or direct, you don't have the DAC involved.
Isn't?

 

[peng]

Well, I think it should make a difference. If you are using an analog input, with pure direct or direct, you don't have the DAC involved.
Isn't?

You meant "ADC and DAC" right? That is, in pure direct mode, signal flow: analog input >>> preamp/volume control IC input >>>preamp/volume control IC output

in Stereo mode, signal flow: analog input >>>ADC AK5358 >>>DSP/DAC AK4458 >>> preamp/volume control IC input >>> preamp/volume control IC output

 

[maty]

Just now, more AVR measurements to compare. Onyko TX-NR1009, year: 2011.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/11/measurements-onyko-tx-nr1009-wrat-av.html

 

[jazzendapus]

Testing output impendance looks like a good idea with speaker amps as well...

 

[peng]

https://www.melbournehifi.com.au/products/denon-avr-x3500h

Optimized



Again, EI transformer just below the processing electronics is not a good idea. What interests them is to reduce the price.

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is a very attractive price.

The front panel of the unit is the same as any other AVR:

View attachment 39924​

The volume control though has a much nicer feel than most other AVRs.

If there is a setup button on the front, I must have missed it as I could not find a way to program the unit without the remote control.

The back panel is as expected:

View attachment 39925​

The speaker connectors were beefy enough for my heavy wires I use which I appreciated.

For testing, I reset the unit which put me in a wizard which was useful but then got stuck without a cancel button on room EQ. Somehow I got out of it but was not easy.

The on-screen graphs were not that attractive but did the job.

The amplifier modules use the same flimsy heatsinks many other AVRs use. Here, they made a mistake of running two wide ribbon cables over the left and right channels which likely block convection cooling fair bit. In use, during my normal testing those two challens felt pretty warm, eventually leading to amp limiting power output to some 35 watts or so. I then ran my regulated power test which caused the unit to shut down and go internal protection. I put a fan on it and it would again shut down. Clearly these AVRs are not designed for continuous duty operation.

Amir, I just realized I missed your very first few points right in the beginning of the review. So my questions now are:

1) when you said ..eventually leading to amp limiting power...to ....35 watts............, eventually means how long, few minutes, and how many channels driven, 1,2,..7?

2) what is you "regulated power test that cause the unit to shut down, again, how long did it take to shutdown, and how many channel driven, just 1, 2 or all 7?

3) ..these AVRS are not designed for continuous duty operation... Same questions, does continuous mean literally continuous, or just a few minutes, or longer?

Many thanks.

 

[chebum]

Think about it: a 60dB dynamic range on top of a 30dB background noise equals 90db. How much louder than 90dB do you want to listen to music in your home? More importantly, for every additional 3dB you increase dynamic range, you would need to double the wattage of your amplifier and double the output of your speakers.............."

Quiet sounds don't automatically get lost in the background noise. Our brain can definitely distinguish parituclar sounds from the background noise. We can concentrate and listen to a particular talk in a noisy restaurant, for example. Sure, it won't be as clearly heard as sounds above the noise level, but it seems every dB counts.

PS. I'm sorry if there already was a comment like this. I'm just on the 6th page

 

[Theriverlethe]

Quiet sounds don't automatically get lost in the background noise. Our brain can definitely distinguish parituclar sounds from the background noise. We can concentrate and listen to a particular talk in a noisy restaurant, for example. Sure, it won't be as clearly heard as sounds above the noise level, but it seems every dB counts.

PS. I'm sorry if there already was a comment like this. I'm just on the 6th page

Yes, but you’re talking about a conversation maybe 10dB below the noise level. It’s unlikely you would hear 30dB SPL sounds at all alongside 90dB SPL program material, let alone anything beneath the -60dB noise floor.

 

[amirm]

2) what is you "regulated power test that cause the unit to shut down, again, how long did it take to shutdown, and how many channel driven, just 1, 2 or all 7?

Unless I say otherwise, testing is always with two channels driven. How long is a few minutes, say 2 to 4 minutes. I have not timed it.

 

[peng]

Unless I say otherwise, testing is always with two channels driven. How long is a few minutes, say 2 to 4 minutes. I have not timed it.

Thank you. I asked because 35 W would be about 1/3 rated output power. Heat dissipation would likely be more severe than that at rated output. Apparently many amps failed that old FTC amp testing precondition requirement using 1/3 rated power. 2 to 4 minutes would seem a little too quick for the thermal protection scheme to limit output or force a shutdown. I also wonder why the fans didn't kick in before it shutdown. I am tempted to ask Denon but I highly doubt the would response with a good answer.

 

[amirm]

The only answer they give is "send it and we can inspect it." And if you do, they send it back and say, "nothing wrong with it." The support people are so far removed from anyone who would know such answers.

 

[Head_Unit]

...Is there a market for a line of AVRs that strips out a bunch of features but bumps up the audio/video capabilities? For example: a line that has no voice assistants, no room EQ (no mic either), no HEOS ... sells for about the same MSRP ... and has better DAC chips and maybe a better internal implementation...I'm guessing the vast majority of consumers want features, convenience, and maybe wattage...

I'm guessing the vast majority of consumers really have no idea what they want or need. And think 90 watts is 20% better than 75. Actually, I'm guessing the vast majority of marketing people inside these companies have little idea about the technical aspects of their products. More actually, I don't have to guess, I saw that happen at a huge audio company I worked for.

The kind of AVR you espouse would be interesting. Beefy amps, basic multichannel functions, a few HDMI inputs only (plus 1 legacy 3.5 mm or RCA, and I guess an optic in for TV). I'd want room correction, Audyssey really smoothened my friend's bass response...so already I'm piling on features. I think however this kind of product could not succeed from an established AVR company, they'd need to make a new brand rather like NAD/Bluesound. And it would take some clever marketing to penetrate to customers that HEY JUST GET THIS ONE.

 

[krabapple]

I have an earlier model (X3300W) and I can confirm the amp overheating and going into heavy distortion when played at high volume for any length of time. This in my view is a much bigger problem than the DAC measurements.

What's high volume? I've played my X3300 in a 5.2 system at the 75dB volume setting for hours at a time with never a shutdown. Do you use a subwoofer?

 

[Theriverlethe]

What's high volume? I've played my X3300 in a 5.2 system at the 75dB volume setting for hours at a time with never a shutdown. Do you use a subwoofer?

I have two subwoofers, crossed with the mains at 60Hz, I believe. The “pullback” occurs above -6dB with music, but it hasn’t shut down. I don’t know what that setting corresponds to on the alternate volume scale you’re using. Dynamic peaks in films don’t last long enough to cause a problem.

 

[chebum]

I've played my X3300 in a 5.2 system at the 75dB volume setting for hours at a time with never a shutdown.

Same here. Owned X3300W and X3500h. I'm using a digital crossover and Denons acted as multi-channel DAC + multi-channel AMP. They powered 2x 2-way 8Ohm speakers + 3x 4-Ohm subwoofers. Never experienced any shutdowns. Both weren't as hot as Arcam I currently have.
X3500 was also the quietest amp I had. I needed to put my head into the horn to hear the hiss.

Sold Denons solely because they exhibit some kind of dynamic compression at frequencies higher than 2Khz. Sine-sweep shows flat frequency response, good THD, but no "holy-shit" emotion on dynamic passages. For example, the difference is clear with John Williams playing Asturias, or Metallica - St. Anger. To figure out the problem, I recorded the sound with measurement mic and Audacity shows a visible weakness above 2KHz on the spectrogram. Don't know why.

 

[krabapple]

Same here. Owned X3300W and X3500h. I'm using a digital crossover and Denons acted as multi-channel DAC + multi-channel AMP. They powered 2x 2-way 8Ohm speakers + 3x 4-Ohm subwoofers. Never experienced any shutdowns. Both weren't as hot as Arcam I currently have.
X3500 was also the quietest amp I had. I needed to put my head into the horn to hear the hiss.

Sold Denons solely because they exhibit some kind of dynamic compression at frequencies higher than 2Khz. Sine-sweep shows flat frequency response, good THD, but no "holy-shit" emotion on dynamic passages. For example, the difference is clear with John Williams playing Asturias, or Metallica - St. Anger. To figure out the problem, I recorded the sound with measurement mic and Audacity shows a visible weakness above 2KHz on the spectrogram. Don't know why.

I wonder if people are running their AVRs in cabinets, closets, or some other context where airflow is restricted? Mine are out in the open.

I have no idea what the 'visible weakness above 2K ' you saw is about, though. I haven't heard it (and I'd hardly use a Metallica albums as a test of dynamic range)

 

[Putter]

I have an earlier model (X3300W) and I can confirm the amp overheating and going into heavy distortion when played at high volume for any length of time. This in my view is a much bigger problem than the DAC measurements.

I also have an X3300W with subs which ran hot even when I offloaded 5 channels to a power amp (actually an older HK AVR80 with jumpers between the preamp and power amp) and the Denon only ran 2 surrounds. While I wouldn't say it got dangerously hot, I did install a laptop cooling fan atop it to extend its life.

 

[chebum]

have no idea what the 'visible weakness above 2K ' you saw is about, though. I haven't heard it (and I'd hardly use a Metallica albums as a test of dynamic range)

Here are spectrograms of recordings made using the same mic. I used a combination of Denon + old Carver power amp and Denon alone. Carver was used for horn drivers crossed at about 700Hz.

If we switch to waveform, we get this:

Peaks are smoothed if all frequencies are handled by Denon.

Frequency response at slow sweep is the same though:

 

[Theriverlethe]

Same here. Owned X3300W and X3500h. I'm using a digital crossover and Denons acted as multi-channel DAC + multi-channel AMP. They powered 2x 2-way 8Ohm speakers + 3x 4-Ohm subwoofers. Never experienced any shutdowns. Both weren't as hot as Arcam I currently have.
X3500 was also the quietest amp I had. I needed to put my head into the horn to hear the hiss.

Sold Denons solely because they exhibit some kind of dynamic compression at frequencies higher than 2Khz. Sine-sweep shows flat frequency response, good THD, but no "holy-shit" emotion on dynamic passages. For example, the difference is clear with John Williams playing Asturias, or Metallica - St. Anger. To figure out the problem, I recorded the sound with measurement mic and Audacity shows a visible weakness above 2KHz on the spectrogram. Don't know why.

Huh, I haven’t noticed anything peculiar about the high frequencies. I would say it’s more like an overall pullback of maybe 6dB with some audible distortion. Front and back of my TV stand are open, with a 6” wide wooden beam on the left side. The receiver has plenty of clearance above and to the sides. Speakers are SVS Primes and Audyssey is correcting for floor bounce between 100 - 200Hz, so this is probably a factor.

Edit: Are you sure you don’t have “Cinema EQ” turned on or something?

 

[SwainVoorman]

So is there any evidence that the Denon AVR-X3600H, AVR-X4500H, or the, say, Marantz SR6013 have improvements on the DAC performance front? I understand from previous posts that the build quality of these other units are improved? After going through many AV reviews here, however, i'm getting the sense that it may all be a moot point anyways.