Denon avr vs minidsp ddrc24

[mas]

I've been slowly cobbling together a HT setup over time, as budget and sales allow.

Currently I'm running a stereo pair of kef Q100, a svs sb12-nsd, and a pre-hdmi pioneer vsx-d810s. Sources are my TV and a Chromecast audio, both over toslink.

I'd like to add a center eventually, but I have no room for surrounds.

Unfortunately, the receiver is having some amp issues, and I need a replacement.

Before prices shot up, I was looking at the Denon x3500/3600/3700, since they could be found used for ~$550, but that seems to be gone now.

As an alternative, I was considering the minidsp ddrc-24, plus a 2 channel amp.

Any thoughts on other cost effective room correction + amp? 2.1 is my minimum for channels, but 3.2 or more would be preferred.

Thanks!

 

[snackiac]

I bought a Yamaha WXA50 based on the review here, and a MiniDSP DDRC24 for a space efficient system. My main audio source is actually a FireCube with an HDMI extractor since I had both already, and the Echo Link is twice the price. Anyways it works and it sounds wonderful to me (using Ascend Lunas and Rhythmic L12), but I never come close to the volume levels some people here do

I'm sort of interested in that SHD Power though...

 

[mas]

I bought a Yamaha WXA50 based on the review here, and a MiniDSP DDRC24 for a space efficient system. My main audio source is actually a FireCube with an HDMI extractor since I had both already, and the Echo Link is twice the price. Anyways it works and it sounds wonderful to me (using Ascend Lunas and Rhythmic L12), but I never come close to the volume levels some people here do

I'm sort of interested in that SHD Power though...

My main concerns with the minidsp are:
Limited inputs
Limited channel count
No HDMI for CEC and auto-lipsync (I've been having issues keeping devices synced with just the remote, and constant lipsync issues over toslink)

If I found a cheap avr with a loop out / in, I could use it as a processor, and just have the minidsp inline. And then just move the minidsp to bass duties if I add channels.

With just pre-outs, I wonder if it would be possible to do avr -> minidsp -> amp + l/r and sub, with center + surrounds on the avr

 

[snackiac]

My main concerns with the minidsp are:
Limited inputs
Limited channel count
No HDMI for CEC and auto-lipsync (I've been having issues keeping devices synced with just the remote, and constant lipsync issues over toslink)

If I found a cheap avr with a loop out / in, I could use it as a processor, and just have the minidsp inline. And then just move the minidsp to bass duties if I add channels.

With just pre-outs, I wonder if it would be possible to do avr -> minidsp -> amp + l/r and sub, with center + surrounds on the avr

Someone more familiar with miniDSP may want to chime in, but last I looked I think it's tricky to try to only EQ some of the speakers with Dirac. The levels and delay introduced by Dirac don't match. You could do your proposed processing chain and skip the miniDSP for now and add an 88a later though.

It didn't measure well here, but depending on your use case (not near reference volume) you may want to try to find a used NAD T758. It's likely to be your cheapest way into multichannel Dirac. If you're willing to spend more the T777 reviewed better with more headroom in the amps. HDMI and CEC are going to be crapshoot with those though, so if that's important you're better off waiting for a good deal on the Denons.

 

[mas]

Thanks, that's along the lines of what I was thinking.

I'm always listening well below reference, due to being in a 12x22 room in an apartment.
TV and speakers are on the short wall, with sub in the corner, and the listening position on the couch being about 6ft from the tweeters.

I've been keeping an eye out for refurbs on the Denon x3500, x3600, and I guess x3700, as well as Marantz sr6014, Nad t758v3, Arcam AVR 390.

On a different topic, I have no complaints about the svs sb12-nsd, but I'm curious about the rythmik l12 or the rsl speedwoofer while I'm in my exchange window.

 

[snackiac]

Thanks, that's along the lines of what I was thinking.

I'm always listening well below reference, due to being in a 12x22 room in an apartment.
TV and speakers are on the short wall, with sub in the corner, and the listening position on the couch being about 6ft from the tweeters.

I've been keeping an eye out for refurbs on the Denon x3500, x3600, and I guess x3700, as well as Marantz sr6014, Nad t758v3, Arcam AVR 390.

On a different topic, I have no complaints about the svs sb12-nsd, but I'm curious about the rythmik l12 or the rsl speedwoofer while I'm in my exchange window.

Just in case you missed the review here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rythmik-l12-subwoofer-review.12140/

No complaints from me, does the job I need perfectly (mostly music, medium room, lowish-medium volume). I've never owned an SVS to compare though.

 

[mas]

Edit: Moved subwoofer chart discussion to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...resentation-for-subwoofers-vs-speakers.14368/

 

[kinghrothgar]

I'm currently trying to build pretty much the exact same system (3.2) in the most affordable way. My current 2.2 setup:

• TV -> TOSLINK-> miniDSP 2x4HD
• Parasound A23 -> ELAC DBR-62's
• 2 x HSU ULS-15 mk2 (sealed 15" subwoofers, crossed over at 150Hz)

With my build out I want to add Live DIRAC and processing / amplification for a center channel. I was hoping to go the NAD T758 V3 route as that would have Live DIRAC, pre-outs for my Parasound A23, and then power the center with the NAD. However, the review of the T758 on ASR was abysmal, worst DAC ever reviewed here. That has kicked me back to my original plan which is as follows:

• Denon AVR-X3600H - tested very well for an AVR and can be used as a just a Surround Processor, can be found used / open box for $800-900
• miniDSP DDRC-88A - can't find this tested, almost never found used - $1000
• Eventually add another amp for center channel (I'll probably use a 3rd ELAC DBR-62 for my center), can't use Denon channel because of miniDSP delay as mentioned by snackiac ($300-700, center speaker not included in price)

The main thing that concerns me about this route is that I'm buying the $1000 miniDSP blind. If I do go this route I will see if amirm wants to test it. I was also hoping to be able to build this out for less than this combo, $2500. However if what I want costs that much, it costs that much. If anyone knows about an AVR that tests well with Live DIRAC and is less that $2500, I would love the suggestion.

 

[Darvis]

I'm currently trying to build pretty much the exact same system (3.2) in the most affordable way. My current 2.2 setup:

• TV -> TOSLINK-> miniDSP 2x4HD
• Parasound A23 -> ELAC DBR-62's
• 2 x HSU ULS-15 mk2 (sealed 15" subwoofers, crossed over at 150Hz)

With my build out I want to add Live DIRAC and processing / amplification for a center channel. I was hoping to go the NAD T758 V3 route as that would have Live DIRAC, pre-outs for my Parasound A23, and then power the center with the NAD. However, the review of the T758 on ASR was abysmal, worst DAC ever reviewed here. That has kicked me back to my original plan which is as follows:

• Denon AVR-X3600H - tested very well for an AVR and can be used as a just a Surround Processor, can be found used / open box for $800-900
• miniDSP DDRC-88A - can't find this tested, almost never found used - $1000
• Eventually add another amp for center channel (I'll probably use a 3rd ELAC DBR-62 for my center), can't use Denon channel because of miniDSP delay as mentioned by snackiac ($300-700, center speaker not included in price)

The main thing that concerns me about this route is that I'm buying the $1000 miniDSP blind. If I do go this route I will see if amirm wants to test it. I was also hoping to be able to build this out for less than this combo, $2500. However if what I want costs that much, it costs that much. If anyone knows about an AVR that tests well with Live DIRAC and is less that $2500, I would love the suggestion.

That seems very complicated (well, if you manage more power to you ), the NAD measurements were bad, but really, especially with a power amp, would you be able to hear it?

 

[kinghrothgar]

That seems very complicated (well, if you manage more power to you ), the NAD measurements were bad, but really, especially with a power amp, would you be able to hear it?

As I am someone who takes the time to read through and attempt to understand reviews as in-depth amirm's, would it not be strange for me to totally disregard them and buy the worst rated DAC ever reviewed by him? I can't tell you if I could hear it because I don't have the luxury of testing equipment of this quality in person without buying it.

 

[Darvis]

But has the minidsp been tested? What if it introduces its own distortion? So it's not about disregarding but about the big picture, the whole system distortion and noise, the chance it hits the audibility threshold, the ease of setup and use, the resell value etc...

 

[peng]

My main concerns with the minidsp are:
Limited inputs
Limited channel count
No HDMI for CEC and auto-lipsync (I've been having issues keeping devices synced with just the remote, and constant lipsync issues over toslink)

If I found a cheap avr with a loop out / in, I could use it as a processor, and just have the minidsp inline. And then just move the minidsp to bass duties if I add channels.

With just pre-outs, I wonder if it would be possible to do avr -> minidsp -> amp + l/r and sub, with center + surrounds on the avr

I have tried the minidsp 2X4 HD with both my 7.1 (at that time) HT (using the Marantz AV8801) and a 2 channel system 2-3 years ago. It worked quite well, and my REW/Umik-1 mic plotted FR did showed an improvement of about 1 dB in the 20-say 120 Hz range. Since I definitely could not hear any difference whatsoever with or without it, as Audyssey XT32 by itself had no trouble getting me within about 5 dB peak to peak in that range anyway, so I finally removed the minidsp and it has been back in the box since then. In my opinion, just 1 dB improvement is not worth the hassle of having a few more wires dangling around, and the addition box to place and it heats things up too.

Fast track to 2018 when I replaced the Marantz with the AV-X4400H that is compatible with the MultEQ Editor App, and now with the Ratbuddyssey UI (a 3rd party UI), I finally managed +/- 1 dB or better (1/12 smoothing) for the low range.

So I like your idea of getting a cheap avr, you could get the X3500H for around $599 and buy the app for $20. Then download the Ratbuddyssey for free and then within an hour you will be able to get a very nice and flat bass response curve. From there you can easily (relatively speaking) create you own custom target curve. I am convenience that the minidsp cannot do any better then the app+Ratbuddyssey, not way..

The money you save on skipping the minidsp can be applied to get the more up to date X3600H, that currently is top on the DAC ranking ASR chart in the AVR/AVP group.

 

[snackiac]

My experience tracks with Peng's. Multichannel Dirac doesn't seem to be worth the hassle over getting a decent XT32 receiver right now.

I'm finally giving up on the NAD T758 due to HDMI issues. It inevitably stops working when my wife is using it, making much anger

The only stable setup I've been able to get is this:
Apple TV 4K (Atmos off, 7.1 LPCM out) -> HDFury -> nanoAVR -> Marantz

The video goes from the HDFury to the TV, so it bypasses the big limitation of the nanoAVR. This setup is expensive and IMO not worth it though.

 

[thebizz]

I currently have a denon 3400, a few spare amplifiers and a ddrc24. I am thinking of using the ddrc24 in the chain for LR and a sub.
My findings are that dirac nails the sub response and some nasty peaks I have perfectly but in itself is not worth upgrading to a different receiver.
I have the aud app but for the life of me I can't stop it rolling off towards 20 when rew testing show the sub can output 115db down to 15 (18 sub)
I am hoping that doing the below will work.
Set the fronts to large with no sub.
Set up the ddrc with dirac and calibrate a full range response.
Then run Audyssey calibration.
Set Audyssey to left right bypass.
Has anyone actually done this and got it to work?
I may also try Ratbuddyssey interface that peng mentions as Audyssey doesn't do that bad a job but the interface for the app is just maddening.

 

[mas]

From the discussion here, it sounds like the big limitations on "mixing" the DDRC-24 + an Audyssey receiver would be:
1. Dirac introduces a large latency, and I'm not sure Audyssey or the receiver can delay the other channels long enough
2. any issues from running Audyssey + Dirac on the L/R or sub channels

Most existing cases people seem to have used it just for the subs, where I guess 1 and 2 are less significant?

 

[thebizz]

Thanks mas. From what I understand dirac adds 13ms delay as a minimum for the processing. Then the delay for the minidsp itself I assume and then the speakers delays themselves. Thinking of using a crown xls amp which itself will introduce some delay.
Currently, the delay span goes from 2m for the closest rear speakers, 3m for the front three and then 4.9m for the subwoofer on an Audyssey calibration just using the receiver. The delay on the Denon go up to 18m (52ms).
I may look into Ratbuddyssey first as it's going to take a day to set up the ddrc.