Denon AVR-S670H

[MaxwellsEq]

Always thought impedance was the actual resistance of everything in the component or on the circuit. It's measured in ohms.

Resistance is in reality impossible. Even the most perfect pure resistor ever made has inductance (e.g. through its connections - even SMD) and capacitance. They may be very small factors compared to the resistance.

I'm an electrical contractor by trade. I can get you powered to something,

So you must be aware that large motors (e.g. in a factory) always require more planning than just connecting the site to the supply. This is because their large inductance means that current and voltage are out of phase and so the load is complex.

 

[Chrispy]

LFE set to 120hz.

LPF of LFE or ? This is just a limitation on the LFE (.1 ch) content. That's the normal setting as its the usual limit of content....

 

[Captorofsin]

I DID(correction) give an honest look of where this was discussed before on this forum. I could not find it. My apologies.


I was thinking about it last night. Why would a receiver (like my Denon AVR-590) show DDD+ on the display when it's not capable of atmos or anything over five channels.

*It is my understanding the only difference between Dolby digital and Dolby digital Plus is Dolby digital Plus is capable of atmos and more than five channels.

 

[Captorofsin]

Something does not sound right, such as settings that limit the output, and/or your Netflix, for whatever reason, has lower than usual signal output. At volume 95 on an AVR, will make audible distortions, 100% sure, under normal, or say, factory default conditions/settings. Regardless, if it sounds nice and loud to you then you are all set!!

You speakers are not capable of giving you reference level (agreed, it would be obnoxiously loud to a lot of people, that's why I feel like wearing earplugs in movie cinemas) from even 10-12 feet. That's based on their own published specifications, so if you push them to give you reference level (I know you won't, and have no need to), they will complain and force you to turn it down in a hurry.

I am one of those people that can actually recognize distortion. You would be surprised how many people cannot.

 

[Captorofsin]

Something does not sound right, such as settings that limit the output, and/or your Netflix, for whatever reason, has lower than usual signal output. At volume 95 on an AVR, will make audible distortions, 100% sure, under normal, or say, factory default conditions/settings. Regardless, if it sounds nice and loud to you then you are all set!!

You speakers are not capable of giving you reference level (agreed, it would be obnoxiously loud to a lot of people, that's why I feel like wearing earplugs in movie cinemas) from even 10-12 feet. That's based on their own published specifications, so if you push them to give you reference level (I know you won't, and have no need to), they will complain and force you to turn it down in a hurry.

I am one of those people that can actually recognize distortion. You would be surprised how many people cannot

Something does not sound right, such as settings that limit the output, and/or your Netflix, for whatever reason, has lower than usual signal output. At volume 95 on an AVR, will make audible distortions, 100% sure, under normal, or say, factory default conditions/settings. Regardless, if it sounds nice and loud to you then you are all set!!

You speakers are not capable of giving you reference level (agreed, it would be obnoxiously loud to a lot of people, that's why I feel like wearing earplugs in movie cinemas) from even 10-12 feet. That's based on their own published specifications, so if you push them to give you reference level (I know you won't, and have no need to), they will complain and force you to turn it down in a hurry.

I think the reason I'm not getting the distortion because I have the LFE said 120 Hertz and the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80 hz.

 

[Captorofsin]

It is rated 75 W 8 ohms, so it should be completely fine to be rated 37.5 W 4ohms.

Most , if not all avrs are NOT 4 ohm rated for more than their 8 ohm rated values. If they do, they would most likely use some sort of short time duration, higher distortions, band limited, or any combinations of those caveats. The same applies to many integrated 2ch amps and some power amps.

Edit: added missing word "NOT".

@MaxwellsEq , sorry I had to edit my post after you read it. It was major error/omission because I missed the word "not", no idea how it happened.

Assuming it's 75 watts of channel 2 channel driven. It doesn't state that anywhere in the paperwork for my receiver, but other receivers it states that plan is day.

I figure if I was getting 75 watts into 8 ohms I would be getting probably closer to a 100-125 four ohm driven.

 

[Captorofsin]

All those things you cited above are correct, but you last sentence is false, due to your misunderstanding of how things work in terms of "W" vs sound pressure level, that is, it is not a linear relationship, and you need a lot more "W" to make a significant difference in terms of the "loudness" you will perceive.

It is important to understand that in practical terms, 2 times the power output = only 3 dB difference in sound pressure level and in most cases, it is generally recognized that one needs to have at least 6 dB, or up to 10 dB higher spl to perceive "twice" as loud.

In terms "how loud" sound pressure level, we use the log scale because it is not a linear relationship.

3 dB = 2 times
1 dB = 1.258 times
-3 dB = 0.5 times

So, the S970H, 90 W, compared to the S570BT's 70 W, the ration is about 1.28, that will give you just 1.07 dB more in terms of sound pressure level

Between the two AVR, for you to hear the same sound pressure level, the difference is just 1 in the volume dial. That is, all else being the same, with the S570BT, if you set the volume to -20, with the S970H, you only need to turn it to -19. Practically no difference.

If you want to play with this, use an online calculator such as the following:

Gain factor dB conversion to factor ratio gain conversion to level in decibels dB amplitude voltage gain field quantity dBu dBm dBW dBV dBmV dBµV dBu energy size power voltage damping factor attenuation amplitude amplification acoustic intensity soun

gain factor ratio gain conversion to level in decibels dB amplitude voltage gain conversion to factor field quantity dBu dBm dBW dBV dBmV dBµV dBu energy size power voltage damping attenuation amplitude amplification acoustic intensity sound pressure factor ratio voltage gain powerloss level...

sengpielaudio.com

So, three decibels would be considered "right at" 50% louder. This means I would have to double the power to get 50% louder?

 

[Chrispy]

I DID(correction) give an honest look of where this was discussed before on this forum. I could not find it. My apologies.


I was thinking about it last night. Why would a receiver (like my Denon AVR-590) show DDD+ on the display when it's not capable of atmos or anything over five channels.

*It is my understanding the only difference between Dolby digital and Dolby digital Plus is Dolby digital Plus is capable of atmos and more than five channels.

DD+ is a lossy codec good for 5 or 7 ch or even Atmos to an extent. It's from what I've seen just more capable than the old DD (Dolby Digital) and much more widely used now. Atmos doesn't seem to be particularly great via streaming (compared to disc).

 

[Chrispy]

I am one of those people that can actually recognize distortion. You would be surprised how many people cannot


I think the reason I'm not getting the distortion because I have the LFE said 120 Hertz and the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80 hz.

You probably overstate your abilities, but.... The LPF of LFE at 120 is simply a standard setting and has little to do with speakers set to use bass management, let alone the crossover used.

 

[Chrispy]

So, three decibels would be considered "right at" 50% louder. This means I would have to double the power to get 50% louder?

I wouldn't consider 3dB 50% louder. Doubling is more like 10dB

 

[Captorofsin]

I wouldn't consider 3dB 50% louder. Doubling is more like 10dB

Closer to 5 dB?

 

[Chrispy]

Closer to 5 dB?

Do you have a volume scale in dB currently? Try going up 3dB or 5dB and tell me....

 

[Captorofsin]

All those things you cited above are correct, but you last sentence is false, due to your misunderstanding of how things work in terms of "W" vs sound pressure level, that is, it is not a linear relationship, and you need a lot more "W" to make a significant difference in terms of the "loudness" you will perceive.

It is important to understand that in practical terms, 2 times the power output = only 3 dB difference in sound pressure level and in most cases, it is generally recognized that one needs to have at least 6 dB, or up to 10 dB higher spl to perceive "twice" as loud.

In terms "how loud" sound pressure level, we use the log scale because it is not a linear relationship.

3 dB = 2 times
1 dB = 1.258 times
-3 dB = 0.5 times

So, the S970H, 90 W, compared to the S570BT's 70 W, the ration is about 1.28, that will give you just 1.07 dB more in terms of sound pressure level

Between the two AVR, for you to hear the same sound pressure level, the difference is just 1 in the volume dial. That is, all else being the same, with the S570BT, if you set the volume to -20, with the S970H, you only need to turn it to -19. Practically no difference.

If you want to play with this, use an online calculator such as the following:

Gain factor dB conversion to factor ratio gain conversion to level in decibels dB amplitude voltage gain field quantity dBu dBm dBW dBV dBmV dBµV dBu energy size power voltage damping factor attenuation amplitude amplification acoustic intensity soun

gain factor ratio gain conversion to level in decibels dB amplitude voltage gain conversion to factor field quantity dBu dBm dBW dBV dBmV dBµV dBu energy size power voltage damping attenuation amplitude amplification acoustic intensity sound pressure factor ratio voltage gain powerloss level...

sengpielaudio.com

The S970H is 90 watts into 8 ohms 2ch driven? If yes, that means that into four ohms it would probably be between 125 watts and 150 watts?

This tells me what I need to do if I want to "curb" the "appetite" of these "power hungry"speakers, I would have to find something (like the S970H) at least 90 watts into 8 ohms (two channel driven) to drive my 4 ohm speakers. In the back of my mind I want to state that I did read something about either a Denon comment Onkyo, or marantz that was 110 watts channel (two-channel driven) into 8 ohms. That same receiver driving my full room speakers I think would satisfy the "appetite" (of my speakers).

Opinions would be awesome

 

[Captorofsin]

Closer to 5 dB?

I reread it. I had an epiphany,. Twice the amount of power to get 3DB. To get twice as loud you need at least 6DB probably closer to 10DB.

So to get twice as loud you would have to at LEAST have four times the amount of power coming out of the speakers. That would be 6DB. Please forgive me if I mess that up. I'm not the best at math and I also went to public schools in Alabama

 

[Chrispy]

The S970H is 90 watts into 8 ohms 2ch driven? If yes, that means that into four ohms it would probably be between 125 watts and 150 watts?

This tells me what I need to do if I want to "curb" the "appetite" of these "power hungry"speakers, I would have to find something (like the S970H) at least 90 watts into 8 ohms (two channel driven) to drive my 4 ohm speakers. In the back of my mind I want to state that I did read something about either a Denon comment Onkyo, or marantz that was 110 watts channel (two-channel driven) into 8 ohms. That same receiver driving my full room speakers I think would satisfy the "appetite" (of my speakers).

Opinions would be awesome

I think you just need to analyze your use. On that avr 4 ohm is probably closer to 125 than 150. Curb the appetite is done via the volume control. If you want to go louder then perhaps more capable amps are needed....

 

[Captorofsin]

I think you just need to analyze your use. On that avr 4 ohm is probably closer to 125 than 150. Curb the appetite is done via the volume control. If you want to go louder then perhaps more capable amps are needed....

What I meant by, "curb the appetite", is "feed" those speakers (with more power).

 

[Chrispy]

What I meant by, "curb the appetite", is "feed" those speakers (with more power).

Still, your speakers only go as loud or need as much power as you demand by the volume control. At some point additional power won't mean anything, too. Not sure of your point otoh

 

[Captorofsin]

Still, your speakers only go as loud or need as much power as you demand by the volume control. At some point additional power won't mean anything, too. Not sure of your point otoh

25% louder (for when I need it) would be great. I'll see myself needing any more than that ever. I'm in my mid-50s And I'm not trying to run a concert hall out of my living room

 

[Captorofsin]

I think you just need to analyze your use. On that avr 4 ohm is probably closer to 125 than 150. Curb the appetite is done via the volume control. If you want to go louder then perhaps more capable amps are needed....

I wonder what my AVR-590 is putting out into 4 ohms.

 

[Chrispy]

I wonder what my AVR-590 is putting out into 4 ohms.

I wonder what my AVR-590 is putting out into 4 ohms.

best to find a bench test but the differences aren't likely to be significant