Denon AVR-S670H

[Captorofsin]

If you mean the D300 surround and center, those speakers can't play anywhere near reference level from 10 ft, let alone 15 ft. The recommended peak power for the D330 towers is only 120 W.

If you want to get the best put of them, I would recommed the AVR-X3800H, or Marantz Cinema 50.

If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too.

So can that JBL, but the x3800h is way better in almost every way.

Again, avrs are not rated for 4 ohm based on traditional ways, but in your use case with the D300 series, the avrs mentioned are fine.

Thanks for getting back to me.
Please excuse me, but I'm not familiar with the lingo used (in the two quotes below). Would you please explain .


"If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too."-I kind of get what you're stating here.


"If you mean the D300 surround and center, those speakers can't play anywhere near reference level from 10 ft, let alone 15 ft. The recommended peak power for the D330 towers is only 120 W."- This is "Greek"

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Thanks for getting back to me.
Please excuse me, but I'm not familiar with the lingo used (in the two quotes below). Would you please explain .


"If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too."-I kind of get what you're stating here.


"If you mean the D300 surround and center, those speakers can't play anywhere near reference level from 10 ft, let alone 15 ft. The recommended peak power for the D330 towers is only 120 W."- This is "Greek"

WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX

THX Certified Audio products are designed to let you experience movies the way they were meant to be heard. On every THX Certified AV Receiver the “0” on the volume dial represents THX Reference Level, the exact volume level used by the moviemakers and sound artists in the studio. Achieving the...

www.thx.com

 

[DoctorRobert]

I am going to repeat myself here, as I did in other threats. People obsess way too much over power delivery in AVRs. As long as you use a capable subwoofer (and you do) it will work, just as your existing setup proves. If you want or need specific functions, look at the spec sheet and find an AVR that does everything you need. If you want to improve sound quality, look at the room correction options. In that case, probably one of the cheaper and not overly complicated solutions is to find a receiver with Audyssey that is supported in the Audyssey app.

People here get easily carried away, but for most people, in most cases there is no need to worry about the power output of an AVR, as long as you use a kind of capable subwoofer. Your current setup proves that.

 

[Captorofsin]

WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX

THX Certified Audio products are designed to let you experience movies the way they were meant to be heard. On every THX Certified AV Receiver the “0” on the volume dial represents THX Reference Level, the exact volume level used by the moviemakers and sound artists in the studio. Achieving the...

www.thx.com

So it looks to me like in a nutshell that "reference level" just means "super loud like in a theater". If this is accurate, then I don't see how my speakers wouldn't be able to go all the way up to "reference level" from 15 ft away (considering the specifications on the speakers and the specifications on my amplifier).

"If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too." -I'M NOT FOLLOWING. I KIND OF UNDERSTAND BUT I KIND OF DON'T.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge in some areas.

 

[peng]

I have is five channels. The ones you suggested are nine channel.

In my small space all I need is five channel.

I will be willing to go as high as a seven channel (and not use the two extra channels) If that meant getting a superior receiver for a fair price. I just don't want to pay $1,600 for 9 channels when I'm only using five

I understand the pain to have to use a 9 channel amp and only use 5, but it is a sad reality that while manufacturers do still offer 5 channels AVRs they don't offer them with much output current capability. It is hard to find the specs for those speakers, if you can believe what's on Audioholic.com:

Their impedance dip to 3.6 ohms, nominal is only 4 ohms and sensitivity is in the mid 80's. So unless you listen to something like 70 dB average 90 dB peak, sitting from 15 feet, any of those still available 5.1 or 7.1 AVRs won't be able to drive your speakers adequately. Also, in order to have pre-out, that allows you to us external power amps should you ever need to, they are simply not found in 5.1 AVRs. Even the 7 channel AVR-X1800H, it only has pre outs for the front left and right channels and are available in the North American version, not the European version.

So, again, if you must stick with 5.1 or 7.1 channel AVRs, you can go with the following:

Denon S670H
Yamaha RX-V4A

But go easy on the volume, and invest $20 on an USB fan to make sure the unit won't overheat when playing certain 5.1 movie contents. Still, I believe most of us who have been in this hobby for a long time, will likely suggest something like the slightly higher models such as the AVR-X3800H, Yamaha RX-A4A, or comparable Pioneee, Onkyo models, and just pretend they are 5 channels (again, I know it would seem like overkill, but if you like your 4 ohm Wharfedale that has dips to 3.2 ohms and have relatively low sensitivity, then you have to understand they are "power hungry", relatively speaking. That's all I can say..

Wharfedale D310 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 86dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.6 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 26.5 x 15.5 x 22.8 cm
• Weight: 8.8 lbs

Wharfedale D320 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 87dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 56Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 32.0 x 18.0 x 27.8 cm
• Weight: 13.2 lbs

Wharfedale D330 2.5-way floor-standing speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 88dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 4.1 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 40Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 96.5 x 20.0 x 33.8 cm
• Weight: 40.1 lbs

Wharfedale D300C 2-way center-channel speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 89dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 19.0 x 51.0 x 23.2 cm
• Weight: 17.6 lbs

 

[peng]

"If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too." -I'M NOT FOLLOWING. I KIND OF UNDERSTAND BUT I KIND OF DON'T.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge in some areas.

When you said "30 (volume) on the display", I wasn't sure which scale you were using, if you actually meant -30, it is not that loud but not too quiet either, but if it is the absolute scale, depending on which AVR you have, it could be barely audible. So it is important to be clear about which scale one is using, in order to others to interpret how hard one is pushing the unit.

For clearer understanding of those two scales, let me link you to Denon support:
Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo etc., typically let you choose which scale to use, but they likely have different minimum and maximum, the principle are the same:

Basically the relative scale, such as Denon's -79.5 minimum to +18 dB maximum used dB, that is "decibel".

<rn:page_title/>

support.denon.com

When I adjust the volume on my Denon receiver why does the volume indicator start at -79.5 dB and stop at +18 dB?
A newly installed receiver un-calibrated will have a volume range of -79.5 dB to +18 dB. -79.5 dB is a full mute, where +18 dB is the maximum possible volume output. Once your system is calibrated, 0 dB should provide you with full output from the amplifiers, meaning all other levels are relative to the loudest possible value (0 dB) and are expressed as a negative value. (i.e. -20 dB) 0 dB on the receiver scale represents "reference" level and is arbitrary but is a well-known convention.

Most new model receivers allow you the option of an Absolute volume scale or a 0 to 98 scale. If your receiver has the option for "Volume Display," it can be changed in the GUI menu under: System (or Manual) Setup - Option Setup - Volume Control - Volume Display.

*For newer AVR models, this setting is in the GUI under Audio - Volume - Scale.
Relative Scale: -79.5 dB to +18 dB
Absolute Scale: 0 to 98

For example, the Yamaha RX-V385 has the following volume scale to choose from:

 

[Captorofsin]

I understand the pain to have to use a 9 channel amp and only use 5, but it is a sad reality that while manufacturers do still offer 5 channels AVRs they don't offer them with much output current capability. It is hard to find the specs for those speakers, if you can believe what's on Audioholic.com:

Their impedance dip to 3.6 ohms, nominal is only 4 ohms and sensitivity is in the mid 80's. So unless you listen to something like 70 dB average 90 dB peak, sitting from 15 feet, any of those still available 5.1 or 7.1 AVRs won't be able to drive your speakers adequately. Also, in order to have pre-out, that allows you to us external power amps should you ever need to, they are simply not found in 5.1 AVRs. Even the 7 channel AVR-X1800H, it only has pre outs for the front left and right channels and are available in the North American version, not the European version.

So, again, if you must stick with 5.1 or 7.1 channel AVRs, you can go with the following:

Denon S670H
Yamaha RX-V4A

But go easy on the volume, and invest $20 on an USB fan to make sure the unit won't overheat when playing certain 5.1 movie contents. Still, I believe most of us who have been in this hobby for a long time, will likely suggest something like the slightly higher models such as the AVR-X3800H, Yamaha RX-A4A, or comparable Pioneee, Onkyo models, and just pretend they are 5 channels (again, I know it would seem like overkill, but if you like your 4 ohm Wharfedale that has dips to 3.2 ohms and have relatively low sensitivity, then you have to understand they are "power hungry", relatively speaking. That's all I can say..

Wharfedale D310 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 86dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.6 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 26.5 x 15.5 x 22.8 cm
• Weight: 8.8 lbs

Wharfedale D320 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 87dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 56Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 32.0 x 18.0 x 27.8 cm
• Weight: 13.2 lbs

Wharfedale D330 2.5-way floor-standing speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 88dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 4.1 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 40Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 96.5 x 20.0 x 33.8 cm
• Weight: 40.1 lbs

Wharfedale D300C 2-way center-channel speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 89dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 19.0 x 51.0 x 23.2 cm
• Weight: 17.6 lbs

So unless you listen to something like 70 dB average 90 dB peak, sitting from 15 feet, any of those still available 5.1 or 7.1 AVRs won't be able to drive your speakers adequately.

Fully understand about the ohms, low sensitivity, which makes them "power hungry".

Do you mean 70DB to 90db on the volume display on the front of the unit, actual decibels?

It seems like if I turn the volume up enough I would be okay at 10 to 15 ft. I feel like I'm an oil change technician at a quickie loop interacting with a bunch of Lamborghini and Bugatti automotive technicians

 

[Captorofsin]

I understand the pain to have to use a 9 channel amp and only use 5, but it is a sad reality that while manufacturers do still offer 5 channels AVRs they don't offer them with much output current capability. It is hard to find the specs for those speakers, if you can believe what's on Audioholic.com:

Their impedance dip to 3.6 ohms, nominal is only 4 ohms and sensitivity is in the mid 80's. So unless you listen to something like 70 dB average 90 dB peak, sitting from 15 feet, any of those still available 5.1 or 7.1 AVRs won't be able to drive your speakers adequately. Also, in order to have pre-out, that allows you to us external power amps should you ever need to, they are simply not found in 5.1 AVRs. Even the 7 channel AVR-X1800H, it only has pre outs for the front left and right channels and are available in the North American version, not the European version.

So, again, if you must stick with 5.1 or 7.1 channel AVRs, you can go with the following:

Denon S670H
Yamaha RX-V4A

But go easy on the volume, and invest $20 on an USB fan to make sure the unit won't overheat when playing certain 5.1 movie contents. Still, I believe most of us who have been in this hobby for a long time, will likely suggest something like the slightly higher models such as the AVR-X3800H, Yamaha RX-A4A, or comparable Pioneee, Onkyo models, and just pretend they are 5 channels (again, I know it would seem like overkill, but if you like your 4 ohm Wharfedale that has dips to 3.2 ohms and have relatively low sensitivity, then you have to understand they are "power hungry", relatively speaking. That's all I can say..

Wharfedale D310 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 86dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.6 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 26.5 x 15.5 x 22.8 cm
• Weight: 8.8 lbs

Wharfedale D320 2-way bookshelf speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 87dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 56Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 32.0 x 18.0 x 27.8 cm
• Weight: 13.2 lbs

Wharfedale D330 2.5-way floor-standing speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 88dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 4.1 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 40Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 96.5 x 20.0 x 33.8 cm
• Weight: 40.1 lbs

Wharfedale D300C 2-way center-channel speaker​

• Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 89dB
• Nominal Impedance: 4Ω (minimum 3.8 Ω)
• Frequency Response (+/-3dB): 65Hz ~ 20kHz
• Dimensions (H x W x D): 19.0 x 51.0 x 23.2 cm
• Weight: 17.6 lbs

I have been using an AVR-590 to drive these speakers for the last two years.

I also have a subwoofer that takes care of all the lower frequencies.

What USB fan would you recommend if I do take the route of the seven channel receiver?

I just really don't want to spend 1500.00 to 1700.00 on a receiver. Not trying to come off as a "cheapo", I just feel like it's a waste of money based on my setup. But if I have to do it, I'll do it...

 

[Captorofsin]

Thanks for getting back to me.
Please excuse me, but I'm not familiar with the lingo used (in the two quotes below). Would you please explain .


"If you won't ever go over volume -20 (relative scale), that is 60 in the absolute scale, then the avr-x1800h can do it too."-I kind of get what you're stating here.


"If you mean the D300 surround and center, those speakers can't play anywhere near reference level from 10 ft, let alone 15 ft. The recommended peak power for the D330 towers is only 120 W."- This is "Greek"

The center is is about 13 ft from listing position. The centers are (each) about four feet up and four feet (to the left and right) from each side of the LP. My front two are roughly 13 ft from listening position.

 

[Captorofsin]

I've been doing a little bit of reading. And it looks to me like what the danger/s are:

If you have "power hungry" speakers being driven by a weak amplifier and turn the volume up, that could cause clipping which could damage speakers and cause the receiver to overheat (also damaging the receiver).

 

[Captorofsin]

About this one? I'm trying not to spend a ton of money but still get a decent amplifier. I know that might be considered somewhat of an oxymoron, but I have nothing to lose by trying .

Onkyo TX-NR6100

7.2-channel home theater receiver with Dolby Atmos®, Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and Amazon Alexa compatibility

www.crutchfield.com

 

[peng]

I have been using an AVR-590 to drive these speakers for the last two years.

I also have a subwoofer that takes care of all the lower frequencies.

What USB fan would you recommend if I do take the route of the seven channel receiver?

I just really don't want to spend 1500.00 to 1700.00 on a receiver. Not trying to come off as a "cheapo", I just feel like it's a waste of money based on my setup. But if I have to do it, I'll do it...

If the 590 could drive them to your satisfaction then it means you must have been listening to relatively low spl, like 20 dB below reference. in that cases you can in fact stick to those 5.1 avrs that has the features you need.

 

[peng]

About this one? I'm trying not to spend a ton of money but still get a decent amplifier. I know that might be considered somewhat of an oxymoron, but I have nothing to lose by trying .

Onkyo TX-NR6100

7.2-channel home theater receiver with Dolby Atmos®, Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and Amazon Alexa compatibility

www.crutchfield.com

That’s a good find, great value.

 

[Captorofsin]

If the 590 could drive them to your satisfaction then it means you must have been listening to relatively low spl, like 20 dB below reference. in that cases you can in fact stick to those 5.1 avrs that has the features you need.

Is there a rule of thumb to tell whether or not the AVR is playing at "reference level"?

Always watched movies, series, and listen to music to where the volume was comfortable.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Is there a rule of thumb to tell whether or not the AVR is playing at "reference level"?

Always watched movies, series, and listen to music to where the volume was comfortable.

It's not really a rule of thumb. It's done with generated signals and measuring devices. The practical approach is usually to play pink noise (which sounds more bass-y than the hiss-ier white noise), then the signal is measured with a sound pressure level meter. If you have an iPhone, there's a free, reasonably accurate one from NIOSH.

This is obviously not what most normal consumers do. Fortunately, most AVRs allow you to set up a test microphone and it then generates automated tones. Based on this setup, the AVR can work out reference levels and the more expensive ones can correct room issues.

 

[Captorofsin]

It's not really a rule of thumb. It's done with generated signals and measuring devices. The practical approach is usually to play pink noise (which sounds more bass-y than the hiss-ier white noise), then the signal is measured with a sound pressure level meter. If you have an iPhone, there's a free, reasonably accurate one from NIOSH.

This is obviously not what most normal consumers do. Fortunately, most AVRs allow you to set up a test microphone and it then generates automated tones. Based on this setup, the AVR can work out reference levels and the more expensive ones can correct room issues.

Guess what I want to know is how would someone know that they're listening to something at "reference level"?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Guess what I want to know is how would someone know that they're listening to something at "reference level"?

With a sound meter. If you have an iPhone download NIOSH and have a play!

 

[Captorofsin]

With a sound meter. If you have an iPhone download NIOSH and have a play!

What DB?
I have Android

 

[Chrispy]

Guess what I want to know is how would someone know that they're listening to something at "reference level"?

With some avrs you can calibrate to "reference" levels and using the relative volume scale where reference is "0" and lower volume descends from there (via negative numbers). Reference if measuring would be average levels of 85dB plus 20dB peaks generally speaking, LFE channel 10dB more than that on max.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What DB?
I have Android

There isn't one for Android. Apple control the hardware on their devices so microphone calibration is possible. Android is a hardware free-for-all so there are no standards for microphone behaviour, sadly.

If you want to dabble, SPL meters can be had for not much money, but the cheaper ones don't offer different weightings and fast/slow settings.