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Denon AVR-A1H

AngryZeus

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Let's not talk about hearing differences, let's switch to which one do you enjoy more? Do you find yourself going back and playing songs again? Do you subsconsiously avoid playing music or have your habits remained exactly the same as before?

These to me are better indicators of differences than actually saying "whoa, this is sublime".

For instance, I had to use my old AVR which doesn't support DTS Master HD and Dolby True HD and we had to use plain old DTS. I thought it would be an interesting experiment and I would realize how horrible the old formats were compared to the new formats. Well, we watched Top Gun and No Time To Die and, in both instances, my teenage daughter who loves music made remarks about the opening songs (saying that was amazing or moving her arms during Top Gun). It didn't go unnoticed because she's used to the higher detail soundtracks and she rarely commented or exhibited her behavior with those. I was also enthralled by both. I nearly jumped out of my sofa when the Tomcats flew by and the system must have hit 95-100db. That didn't happen at my IMAX theater when I watched Maverick and they have the THX suspended speakers that will probably kill 30 people if they fall and I rated that movie experience a 10 :)

Needless to say, it was not what I expected.
Totally agree!
That said, I really do hope the A1H "kills" my $700 setup from 12yrs ago
Luckily it's not a fair test, the old setup clips pretty quick so just fixing that will be a major upgrade

The "real" test will be if I (and my wife) can hear the difference when using Hypex Nilai 500 mono blocks for the L/R speakers. that's going to be a fun test day. If I can't hear the difference with the external amps I'll win with beast amps for the man cave (The HT room is "wife-owned" lol)
 

peng

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Let's not talk about hearing differences, let's switch to which one do you enjoy more? Do you find yourself going back and playing songs again? Do you subsconsiously avoid playing music or have your habits remained exactly the same as before?

These to me are better indicators of differences than actually saying "whoa, this is sublime".

For instance, I had to use my old AVR which doesn't support DTS Master HD and Dolby True HD and we had to use plain old DTS. I thought it would be an interesting experiment and I would realize how horrible the old formats were compared to the new formats. Well, we watched Top Gun and No Time To Die and, in both instances, my teenage daughter who loves music made remarks about the opening songs (saying that was amazing or moving her arms during Top Gun). It didn't go unnoticed because she's used to the higher detail soundtracks and she rarely commented or exhibited her behavior with those. I was also enthralled by both. I nearly jumped out of my sofa when the Tomcats flew by and the system must have hit 95-100db. That didn't happen at my IMAX theater when I watched Maverick and they have the THX suspended speakers that will probably kill 30 people if they ever fall and I rated that movie experience a 10 :)

Needless to say, it was not what I expected.

I would agree when dsp is involved. For music without dsp functions other than tone control and/or room eq/correction, no, Amir's measurements (not just SINAD), are much more reliable than one or a few person's ears and brains that are easily influenced, and are very capable of imaging things.
 

peng

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When you talk about amp, you're strictly talking power, right? Apparently, there's a lot of literature to support that which is strange BUT folks do detect differences when they switch. So who's right, who's wrong? When you talk DBT are we talking sound that you're familiar with in your room? Because when it comes to your room, I really don't think I can detect changes the way you would.

And vice versa, in my room I'm Captain Picard here - a slight variation of 0.02% in my nacelles and I'll pick it up and check with Engineering. I had my basement finished and I played music and my first reaction was "wth? did I change speakers and amps? :)" Then I realized that my basement was acting as a 5,000-10,000 square foot 3rd speaker with possible room gain and the sound insulation and double drywall cut that down.

The other day I was pressing Auto every time I watched something and a few days later my brain realized something was wrong with the sound based on the number of times I was pressing Auto. I decided to go into my Marantz menu only to find out that my Audyssey curves had been wiped out - levels, crossovers, etc, were still there but the Room Correction was gone. Obviously, I'd picked it up even with unfamiliar content. My own doing a week before that.

I then ran Audyssey using my Roller as a mic stand and it produced very high pitch sound (unbearable). I had to turn off Audyssey. It must have picked up reflections off the top of the roller or it was moving. I went back to using my outdoor pillows as a stand which are flat and stack phenomenally and function like the microfiber couch pillows that would normally be there (they absorb quite a bit apparently). Much better results but it's still a bit off compared to before.

My point is that when we have a baseline for something whether it's wrong or right, we are able to test that baseline much more accurately. I also think that when we test things we invoke the wrong instrument - the ears. The ears can be fooled and have very little memory - one thing that cannot be fooled is our emotional perception of music which is why I always play things that elicit a reaction in me.

Of course, our brains are much more powerful than any measuring tool and can filter stuff out as well as identify tiny variances that are not heard but are certainly detected by us. I think if you play music you're familiar with in an environment that you're familiar with and compare them to equipment that you're familiar with, DBT would be much higher than 50%.

It would be an interesting test for sure.

DBT is just double blind test. The rest of it would include level match, use the same media contents, same equipment, same room, same conditions basically, it's difficult to do but not that complicated.

In a real controlled DBT, there is no right or wrong, only whether one can identify the amps consistently.

In a sighted test, especially if not tightly controlled, then what you cited in your post will have effects, in that sense, I am in agreement. But then, you cannot base on such comparison tests to say the amps tested sound diiference, let alone one sounding "better" than the other, for the same reason you cited.
 
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techsamurai

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DBT is just double blind test. The rest of it would include level match, us the same media content same equipment, same room, same conditions basically, it's difficult to do but not that complicated.

In a real controlled DBT, there is no right or wrong, only whether one can identify the amps consistently.

In a sighted test, especially if not tightly controlled, the what you cited in your post will have effects, in that sense, I am in agreement. But then, you cannot base on such comparison tests to say the amps tested sound diiference, let alone one sounding "better" than the other, for the same reason you cited.

I agree with you in many ways because I'm beginning to question a lot of things and it wasn't just the DTS vs DTS Master HD (3x more resolution) that has thrown me off. That's not a blind test but the AVRs were identical except for the fact that one supports DTS Master HD and the other doesn't.

Here are 2 more tests that have really thrown me off completely. They involve my eyes which are much more precise than my ears and they've made me question everything I take for granted.

Test #1
It turned out about a month ago that I had been watching Netflix in 720p (1Mbps) for several years. I was livid because I was used to 1080p with (6-7 Mbps) at the very least but since Netflix offered their Premium Plan, they had downgraded the Standard plan's quality from 1080p to 720p. The content's bitrate had dropped to a dismal 1Mbps for almost everything. I can download the entire 1Mbps movie in 5 seconds with my connection. There is still some content like Our Planet which plays in 1080p and 6-7Mbps.

Needless to say, I needed to find out the difference and I upgraded to Netflix's Premium Plan and turned to my OLED laptop (DELL XPS). I launched Chrome and I played a movie but it was still 720p. I then switched to IE Chromium and it started playing in 4k Dolby Vision. So now I have 2 Windows, one playing 4k Dolby Vision and the other 720p SDR :). Well, let's test. I pull up everything and after syncing, I start alt-tabbing like crazy between the 2 browsers.

My hypothesis was that 4k at 16Mbps would crush 720p at 1Mbps - after all it has 16 times more resolution ... and Dolby Vision vs SDR!!! Not even a contest, right?

So I pause scenes and start alt-tabbing until I can't tell what I'm looking at. I honestly could not tell the 4k version from the 720p. I got my glasses which allow me to look at pixels and I looked close and I looked far. In Bullet Train, there was 1 still where I could detect more detail in the background in the 4k. I'd be honest, I would not be surprised if Netflix's 4k version is sub 1080p in terms of resolution. In Our Planet there was a shot of trees where they were more detailed in the 4k.

The biggest shock was SDR vs Dolby Vision. I thought there was something wrong with the laptop so I got my phone out and measured Dolby Vision highlights @ 900 nits and SDR at 950 nits. DV looked less bright which was quite impressive and the nits showed that. SDR was brighter but it also covered a larger area so it appeared much brighter. But the contrast of DV was better because of darker areas next to brighter areas. I couldn't choose between them.

My conclusion was that 4k is not much of an improvement except in terms of bandwidth (not on the screen), DV is cool and a nice alternative filter. What I definitely concluded was that SDR looks amazing on an OLED that has proper SDR brightness.

Test #2 defies all logic
I've been dying to buy an OLED TV but I can't get rid of my 3d TV. If I have a choice between OLED and LED, I always choose OLED (if I can afford it, well now they are cheap so I can buy them without a 2nd thought). However my main TV is a Sony 2014 IPS Edge-lit (their 2nd Quantum Dot LED). It's 1080p, it's IPS, it's edge-lit -it's crazy.

Should be the worst TV ever made based on its technologies. And I still have not replaced it. When I got my OLED laptop, I put the laptop in my lap and created the same viewport as my TV under it. I played the same content. The first thing I noticed was how vibrant the OLED was compared to the LED. But then I changed the Sony's colors to Warm 2, bumped the color to 72, and eventually the colors were identical. Okay, colors are now identical so let's compare the quality.

But the OLED was brighter which didn't make sense since OLEDs are supposed to be dim. I cranked the Sony's brightness from 7 to MAX and it got closer but the OLED was markedly brighter. I started realizing that the OLED was not normal and it was clearly way over the 400 nits on Dell's website. I realized that I have the light sensor on my Sony. I turn the light sensor off and boom, equal brightness. So now I can watch 2 TVs at the same time - one OLED, one LED, one 4k, one 1080p.

My expectation is that the OLED will destroy the 2014 dinosaur.

I played a lot of the intro to Casino Royale because of the colorful intro and the black & white bathroom scene and the dark scene where Bond kills for the first time in the office at night. I'm looking at the OLED and I'm so impressed by it but then I see the LED and it looks near identical or identical. How is that possible? I switch to youtube demos where I can guarantee 4k vs 1080p. Same thing. It got crazy - I spent countless hours trying to salvage OLED's honor.

During the day, the blacks are identical. It's impossible to tell the difference on the OLED and the LED.

In terms of contrast, vibrancy, color volume, my family and friends can't see the difference between the two. I can a little bit but I've had so much time comparing them. I'd give the Sony a 98 and the OLED a 100 - that's how close they are. At night, I prefer the OLED but because I always have a little bit of light and some bias lighting behind the TV, the blacks are perceptually augmented to 3,000-5,000 contrast ratio and I'm fine with that. But this OLED laptop display is also much brighter than a regular OLED (no OLED TV can match its full window brightness) - I can't buy a large TV that will be as bright.

The fact that a 10 year old edge-lit IPS 1080p panel can compare to an OLED that hits 1,000 nits and we can barely tell the difference is a shock. The OLED destroys my 2020 Frame in my bedroom and, by extension, so does my 2014 Sony. It also destroys my calibrated computer screen which is laughably HDR capable (400 nits).

But it failed to destroy a 10 year old IPS, edge-lit, 1080p screen despite having better specs across the board. My hat is off to whoever designed my Sony TV - amazing accomplishment.

Naturally, I've started questioning all my assumptions about what's better and what's worse.
 
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Descartes

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Will Denon AVR get Dirac Live Active Room Treatment and will customers have to pay additional licenses?
 

dlaloum

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Will Denon AVR get Dirac Live Active Room Treatment and will customers have to pay additional licenses?
No word...

Are they capable of supporting DL-ART - most likely.
But I doubt anyone is going to announce anything for a while.
 

MCORN

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Looks like you lose one of the 2 speaker presets to Dirac.
Would have liked the choice of 3 speaker presets to run Odyssey ,Dirac and 2 channel (music) setup ‍
 

AngryZeus

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Looks like you lose one of the 2 speaker presets to Dirac.
Would have liked the choice of 3 speaker presets to run Odyssey ,Dirac and 2 channel (music) setup ‍
Yes but also test out either with the 2 presets, Dirac will prob win and then you'll have your 2nd preset for Stereo available once again :cool:
 

AngryZeus

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The A1H arrived yesterday, exterior box is quite beat up looking but have not opened yet.
Hard kombucha and setting this up = TGIFridayyyyy :)
Got to give a shoutout to Denon on the manual, it is well done.
 

GXAlan

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hmmmm going to be annoyed if they don't offer dirac live for my a110

The A110 doesn't have Dirac since it's running a different CPU.

On the other hand, it has the unobtanium AKM DACs ...
 

peng

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so no chance of them adding a download for that model then?

lol so helpful

I don't believe there is any chance for that, but you can try using a minidsp to run Dirac for the main channels, or just the FL/FR channels and let Audyssey correct the other channels and subs. If I had something like the A110 I would definitely try the two channel minidsp Dirac Live version for $450.
 

AngryZeus

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All set up now! Currently only a 3.1 L/R/C, adding front heights once they're in stock and rear once I have time for wiring

First few hours of impression - the amp is great / major upgrade from my old old and cheap cheap hardware

The UI for setup is good. The manual is almost more confusing than just playing around in the menus to figure stuff out.

Working great with the new 4k Apple TV. The remote is good and the hot-keys at the bottom are nifty.

for WAF I set it up so the #1 input button goes to Apple TV so the wife has "one button" to fix things, literally being the #1 button ahah (50/50 this works lol)

More impressions to come
Running Polk L600 / L400 and adding L900 front heights and in a few months will get L800's for L/R and make L600's rears

Once I get the front heights I will use Dirac, until then I want to get used to it as is to see if it's is valuable
 

AngryZeus

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An aspect of the Denon I had not thought of before the purchase that is becoming very clear should have been part of the purchase decision, is that the mobile apps are pretty good (beyond just existing)
I do not think many of the competitors have mobile apps like Denon
Monoprice and Emotiva do not have mobile apps?

Example - updated the firmware via mobile app, so easy.
 

broncogr

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I have been messing with Dirac the last few days on my Denon AVC-A1H.
I believe I have discovered a quite serious bug that also existed for the Onkyo RZ50 before it was fixed by a firmware update.
I checked the speaker distances after a Dirac calibration


1-jpg.3421289








Notice how they nearly all are at 20 ms ?
Then I read the troubleshooting FAQ for Dirac Live and stumbled upon
Troubleshooting: By Firmware raise the 20ms delay limit on Onkyo - Dirac Live Support - Confluence

I checked the graph for impulse response on the Dirac Live app, selecting all speakers



2-jpg.3421290









So, Denon, as Onkyo previously, has set the max for speaker Delay (Distance) to 20ms....
When Dirac time aligns the speakers, it asks for a larger than 20ms delay to be used.
The AVR cant set a larger delay than 20ms so sets it at 20ms which makes the distance calibration WRONG.

I have opened a ticket at the Dirac helpdesk, so hopefully they can ask Denon to raise the limit of the delay and fix the issue.
It seems logical that since the issue existed with Onkyo, Dirac upon the implementation of Dirac Live for D&M receivers, should have checked that the same issue didn't exist.
Lets hope this gets solved in a future firmware update
 
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