Denon AVR-A1H High-end AVR Review

[EWL5]

Isn't the 4800 the best value due to it's jitter circuitry, which the 3800 does not possess?

Most people are going to be using HDMI, which is notoriously harsh with reference to handling of jitter, so wouldn't the 4800 be the optimal choice with external amps? Amirm's objective measurements suggest this as-well.

Your data is out of date. Jitter used to be an issue when HDMI was first introduced and I remember when Pioneer Elite used Firewire (dubbed "PQLS over "i.Link") in tandem w/HDMI to accomplish jitter reduction in their universal player.

Jitter over HDMI is no longer an issue...

 

[Aventador_SVJ]

Isn't the 4800 the best value due to it's jitter circuitry, which the 3800 does not possess?

Most people are going to be using HDMI, which is notoriously harsh with reference to handling of jitter, so wouldn't the 4800 be the optimal choice with external amps? Amirm's objective measurements suggest this as-well.

The objective measurements suggest otherwise and Amirm pointed out that the jitter was the same on Toslink and HDMI. The 3800 is significantly worse at handling jitter than the 4800. I wouldn't touch the 3800, whereas the 4800 is pretty good:

Versus:

 

[EWL5]

The objective measurements suggest otherwise and Amirm pointed out that the jitter was the same on Toslink and HDMI. The 3800 is significantly worse at handling jitter than the 4800. I wouldn't touch the 3800, whereas the 4800 is pretty good:

View attachment 430518

Versus:

View attachment 430520

Irrelevant to most of us not using Toslink (haven't used that connection in nearly 20 years?)! If you read Amir's reviews, quite a bit of them observe how HDMI has better jitter performance than the Toslink connection!

You should be comparing the multitone curves over HDMI!

There's a ton of features that products can tout for differentiation but "jitter reduction" for me in 2025 is not one of them!

 

[peng]

Isn't the 4800 the best value due to it's jitter circuitry, which the 3800 does not possess?

Most people are going to be using HDMI, which is notoriously harsh with reference to handling of jitter, so wouldn't the 4800 be the optimal choice with external amps? Amirm's objective measurements suggest this as-well.

That's an interesting point about Denon's marketing hype on their so called AL24 or AL32, if that's what you are referring to? Take a look of what Amir said about the Jitter thing in his measurements:

Amir's comments:

Quite poor result.

Jitter is bad but so was the last generation

So, let's compare it with the last generation, that would be the X3700H:

You can see that the 3800 actually did better than the X3700H, but and about the same as the Cinema 40 that also don't have Denon's AL32

3800

Comparing the above graphs, it seems the X4800H did better in Toslink, but in HDMI, the X3800H seemed just as good and better than even the much more expensive Cinema 40, that obviously does not have AL24 or AL32, that's why I included it here for comparison.

Based on those measurements, I would say that AL24, or 32, not sure if the 4800 has the 32 like the flagship A1H has, probably does work, but is the effects audible? Based on the tallest grass, I would say no, except for some real golden ears. Still, if the price difference is not too much, say below $500, I would likely go for the 4800 but not for sound quality reason. I just like better specs and measurements even if they don't make audible differences, as long as the price difference is acceptable to me.

 

[EWL5]

That's an interesting point about Denon's marketing hype on their so called AL24 or AL32, if that's what you are referring to? Take a look of what Amir said about the Jitter thing in his measurements:

Amir's comments:


So, let's compare it with the last generation, that would be the X3700H:

You can see that the 3800 actually did better than the X3700H, but and about the same as the Cinema 40 that also don't have Denon's AL32

3800
View attachment 430519View attachment 430530

View attachment 430533View attachment 430534

Comparing the above graphs, it seems the X4800H did better in Toslink, but in HDMI, the X3800H seemed just as good and better than even the much more expensive Cinema 40, that obviously does not have AL24 or AL32, that's why I included it here for comparison.

Based on those measurements, I would say that AL24, or 32, not sure if the 4800 has the 32 like the flagship A1H has, probably does work, but is the effects audible? Based on the tallest grass, I would say no, except for some real golden ears. Still, if the price difference is not too much, say below $500, I would likely go for the 4800 but not for sound quality reason. I just like better specs and measurements even if they don't make audible differences, as long as the price difference is acceptable to me.

Same for me. If the cost is similar, I'd go for the "better" spec'd product. However, pricing hasn't been similar b/w the 3800 and 4800 so I've opted for the "value" product.
I'd rather pay for performance I can feel like w/cars. Interesting observation on the Marantz as I never thought there would be something negative other than price!

Not sure how these 3800 vs 4800 conversations keep coming up but we're getting a bit OT in this A1H thread, LOL! If I had the channels to drive, the A1H would be on my very short list!

 

[Aventador_SVJ]

Irrelevant to most of us not using Toslink (haven't used that connection in nearly 20 years?)

You missed my point. I was referencing HDMI, as the measurements were the same for both HDMI/Toslink and to quote Amirm: "Finally we have jitter on HDMI and Toslink which were essentially the same".

I agree, most would be using HDMI.

 

[EWL5]

You missed my point. I was referencing HDMI, as the measurements were the same for both HDMI/Toslink and to quote Amirm: "Finally we have jitter on HDMI and Toslink which were essentially the same".

I agree, most would be using HDMI.

Again, if you compare the multitone graphs for HDMI, then the differences in the results are most likely inaudible!

You posted the Toslink Jitter Noise & Spectrum for the 3800 and 4800, which was not necessary if your point truly was "Finally we have jitter on HDMI and Toslink which were essentially the same" (itself not a helpful statement in a vacuum w/o comparing the 3800's HDMI curve).

 

[peng]

Same for me. If the cost is similar, I'd go for the "better" spec'd product. However, pricing hasn't been similar b/w the 3800 and 4800 so I've opted for the "value" product.
I'd rather pay for performance I can feel like w/cars.

Not sure how these 3800 vs 4800 conversations keep coming up but we're getting a bit OT in this A1H thread, LOL! If I had the channels to drive, the A1H would be on my very short list!

I think the reason is exactly because the features and specs of the two are so similar, so naturally potential buyers would be tempted, or motivated to try and understand what would they gain by paying $800 more (full list price, discounted price might be just $500 more) and if they don't understand what they found, they would come and ask questions, opinions, recommendations etc.

Objectively though, there are some differences in the measurements Amir did, but then we all know better measurements does not equal better audibly better sound quality, hence the incoming questions, even arguments on forum like this will not end lol..

By the way, based on the graphs I posted above, we have to give Denon the credit, that it seems very likely that their marketing hype about AL24/AL32 are at least verifiable by and in terms of measurements, audibility is another thing, whereas Marantz has yet to show us the claimed benefits of the HDAMs, best they have done so far is that the improved HDAM versions at least have done no harm as they apparently had in the previous generations. I would also give credit to Marantz inclusion of the dac filter options in the Cinema 30 and AV10, the effects of the different filters are 100% verifiable by measurements as Amir has done multiple times now.

 

[EWL5]

Based on those measurements, I would say that AL24, or 32, not sure if the 4800 has the 32 like the flagship A1H has, probably does work, but is the effects audible? Based on the tallest grass, I would say no, except for some real golden ears. Still, if the price difference is not too much, say below $500, I would likely go for the 4800 but not for sound quality reason. I just like better specs and measurements even if they don't make audible differences, as long as the price difference is acceptable to me.

I can confirm that the 4800 has AL32:

AVR-X4800H | Home Theater Receiver

The Denon AVR-X4800H is a 9.4 Ch. 125W AV receiver for breathtaking home theater with Dolby Atmos, 8K Ultra HD, DTS:X, and HEOS® Built-in streaming.

www.denon.com

 

[Aventador_SVJ]

Again, if you compare the multitone graphs for HDMI, then the differences in the results are most likely inaudible!

You posted the Toslink Jitter Noise & Spectrum for the 3800 and 4800, which was not necessary if your point truly was "Finally we have jitter on HDMI and Toslink which were essentially the same" (itself not a helpful statement in a vacuum w/o comparing the 3800's HDMI curve).

Multitone shows 16 to 17 bits for 3800 and 18 bits for 4800 (and interestingly for the A1 too). Hence, choose the 4800 with external amps.

 

[Oddball]

By the way, based on the graphs I posted above, we have to give Denon the credit, that it seems very likely that their marketing hype about AL24/AL32 are at least verifiable by and in terms of measurements, audibility is another thing, whereas Marantz has yet to show us the claimed benefits of the HDAMs, best they have done so far is that the improved HDAM versions at least have done no harm as they apparently had in the previous generations. I would also give credit to Marantz inclusion of the dac filter options in the Cinema 30 and AV10, the effects of the different filters are 100% verifiable by measurements as Amir has done multiple times now.

Seems like AV-10 is still toping the charts despite HDAMs. Not sure if we could allocate the benefit to HDAM though. In practical terms it doesn't not seem relevant at all, but as usual we are splitting a strain of hair multiple times in full 3D, so might be relevant for the perspective though.

Not that I am in any way shape or form qualified to evaluate engineering behind HDAM, but in my mind they got it right - finally.

I am very biased as AV-10 owner, but I think people should go to the AVS forum threads and get the full picture of how AV-10 was designed to get the full understanding of the effort that went into this unit. Not active on that forum any more, but @bigguyca did a fantastic job getting into engineering details.

 

[RadioPalace]

Thanks to everyone for the invaluable information, I learned more in two days here than in the previous two weeks searching on the internet. I think I'll go for the x6800 + external amp for LCR. I'll put in the top fronts and rears and test the 6/4 channel Atmos with the front heights and without. If I feel no improvement from 6 over 4 I should be able to use the amp assign feature of the 6800 to assign the two freed channels to a second zone without needing an extra external amp for zone 2 or at least I hope.

 

[peng]

Seems like AV-10 is still toping the charts despite HDAMs. Not sure if we could allocate the benefit to HDAM though. In practical terms it doesn't not seem relevant at all, but as usual we are splitting a strain of hair multiple times in full 3D, so might be relevant for the perspective though.

Not that I am in any way shape or form qualified to evaluate engineering behind HDAM, but in my mind they got it right - finally.

I am very biased as AV-10 owner, but I think people should go to the AVS forum threads and get the full picture of how AV-10 was designed to get the full understanding of the effort that went into this unit. Not active on that forum any more, but @bigguyca did a fantastic job getting into engineering details.

No, if they removed the HDAMs, SINAD would be better but just a touch I guess, because of the improvements made over the HDAMs used in the AV8805. I am sure because it's physics and simple logic.

 

[kawauso]

Thanks to everyone for the invaluable information, I learned more in two days here than in the previous two weeks searching on the internet. I think I'll go for the x6800 + external amp for LCR. I'll put in the top fronts and rears and test the 6/4 channel Atmos with the front heights and without. If I feel no improvement from 6 over 4 I should be able to use the amp assign feature of the 6800 to assign the two freed channels to a second zone without needing an extra external amp for zone 2 or at least I hope.

I respect your choice. Enjoy your surround setup! Try testing with the built-in amp first—Denon’s amps are powerful, and you can enjoy up to 300W of peak power.

 

[Oddball]

No, if they removed the HDAMs, SINAD would be better but just a touch I guess, because of the improvements made over the AV8805. I am sur because it's physics and simple logic.

The only time I do have to disagree - nothing to do with HDAMs - at least for AV-10, not sure why 8805 is relevant. If we go by other posts and SINAD limitations, we will get to different components that are bottlenecks.

 

[peng]

The only time I do have to disagree - nothing to do with HDAMs - at least for AV-10, not sure why 8805 is relevant. If we go by other posts and SINAD limitations, we will get to different components that are bottlenecks.

It is relevant because the av8805 and the x8500a use the same opamps, volume control ic and dac ic, yet the Denon measured much better in pre out SINAD. The onky difference seemed to be the HDAM vs no HDAM.

That is no longer the case since the SR8015 vs the AVR-X6700H, the Denon still measured better but the difference is so small that is within the margin of error.

Likewise, the AV10 and the A1H measured practically tbe same, so logically speaking the HDAMs no longer dragged down the overall SINAD. The difference is, the SR8015, Cinema 30 and the AV10 has the improved version of HDAMs, that put them in par with the comparable Denons.

As to why HDAMs cannot improve further than Denon's (in terms of SINAD and slew rate) I will PM you my rationale as I don't want to start a debate on that publictly.

 

[peng]

Not sure if we could allocate the benefit to HDAM though.

When I responded "No" earlier, I referred to this part of the paragraph only, nothing else/more.

Not active on that forum any more, but @bigguyca did a fantastic job getting into engineering details.

I read bigguyca's, it looks obvious that he is very knowledgeable in electronics, specifically amplifier related electronics. Everything he mentioned about HDAMs, I agreed.

 

[RadioPalace]

I respect your choice. Enjoy your surround setup! Try testing with the built-in amp first—Denon’s amps are powerful, and you can enjoy up to 300W of peak power.

Thanks! But no way of testing the 6 Atmos setup without external amplifier, do you mean I should just test with no external amp and 4 Atmos and if I already like it just forget about external amp and front heights?

 

[kawauso]

Thanks! But no way of testing the 6 Atmos setup without external amplifier, do you mean I should just test with no external amp and 4 Atmos and if I already like it just forget about external amp and front heights?

How about comparing 5.1.4 and 5.1.6 using the internal amp? If you like the results of 5.1.6, you can use an external amp to set up 7.1.6.

If you're satisfied with the performance of the X6800H's internal amps, you can save some cost by using something like the Fosi ZA3 for the height channels.

 

[Frank207be]

I came from 7.2.4 setup with a Pioneer SC-LX901 and in-ceiling speakers mounted close to the side walls and I did the upgrade to 7.4.6 with the A1H and 6 in-ceiling speakers exactly according the Dolby specs and much closer to the middle of the room. The surround bubble immediately sounded way more convincing. Everything fell into place.

Most probably 4 Atmos speakers with the right placement would sound excellent too with the A1H but I'm never going back again. All upmixers in the A1H use 6 Atmos speakers so I won't complain. In hindsight I could have planned to include the Auro-3D VOG but my cove ceiling with acoustic panels don't allow for it anymore. Happy camper here