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Denon AVR-A110

peng

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I was surprised frankly, its the same transformer footprint and as far as I can tell, the same EI Laminated core. From logarithmic standpoint, it's below the 1 db threshold as you said, but its considerable from an engineering standpoint + 23% (for the 990 vs 805 watts into 4 ohms) from tweaking the same design? - very impressive in my opinion. It makes you wonder what other gains they made. Interestingly it gained 2.1 kg in weight relative to the X8500.

May be they managed to improve the power supply transformer efficiency by a couple % point by using better core design, more tightly wound etc.. for example, from 97% to 99%. All those minor changes, plus margin of errors for those measurements could amount to the apparent difference in output power measurements show in those two Audiovision.de reviews. That's just speculation on my part.
 
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What's interesting is that the back panel still shows the same "900 watts" as the X8500h for power consumption (which presumably is based upon some UL or ETL required formula). Ignoring the value of the 900 watt rating as it relates to performance and just speaking from an incremental standpoint, it would seem that increasing the VA rating would trigger some requirement from UL or ETL to revise this back panel rating upward. Perhaps this explains why Denon didn't rerate the official power output specs since it would have required recertification from UL?
 

peng

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What's interesting is that the back panel still shows the same "900 watts" as the X8500h for power consumption (which presumably is based upon some UL or ETL required formula). Ignoring the value of the 900 watt rating as it relates to performance and just speaking from an incremental standpoint, it would seem that increasing the VA rating would trigger some requirement from UL or ETL to revise this back panel rating upward. Perhaps this explains why Denon didn't rerate the official power output specs since it would have required recertification from UL?

I don't know what the heck they based on the consumption specs on. You can search UL, ETL all day you won't find any, I know because I tried, but If you do find any, please share..

As you know, transformer VA rating and power consumptions are very different. VA reflects what the transformer is capable of providing, whereas consumption is dependent on usage.

As an example, say the 900 W is based on two channel driven into 8 Ohm at rated output and the remaining channel driven to a % or rated output, the transformer VA required could be just 900 VA (based on a 8 Ohm resistor test load), but you can use a 2000 VA transformer and the power consumption label at the back would still be 900 W if it is still based on the same condition of usage. It would be great if in fact here are rules that such audio devices has to follow in their consumption specs and tell the public what the rules are. At least for the "rated output" spec, there is the FTC rule that they apparently have to follow, unfortunately nothing for power consumption.

An interesting example to show how silly this gets:

The Yamaha A8A's power consumption specs show 600 W/1370W, vs the A3080's 490 W/1210 W, does that mean the 40 lbs RX-A3080 is not even as powerful with a 21 lbs AVR-X2700H that has power consumption of 500 W (no "maximum" provided"? Obviously not.

That being said, power consumption figures may be useful for comparing models of the same line/brand such as the A110 and X8500H.
I am not surprise they remain the same 900 W for both, just like the THD specs, all are 0.05% at rated output from the top A110 to the bottom X4700H, and then 0.08% for all Denon/Marantz models below the X4700H and SR7015.

So the suspected (by me:D) minor tweaks in the transformer design are not going to result in changes significant enough to be shown in such general specifications, especially the most vague, confusing, and silly power consumption specs.
 
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biship

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I have this AVR. I use it as a prepro for 7.2.4 system. I WAS going to buy a traditional prepro from Marantz for instance the HDMI 2.1 replacement for the 8805–until I started reading this forum. I was also toying with the idea of waiting for the Anthem AVM 70 or 90. But BOY am I glad I didn’t go that route. Whew. This unit will measure as good or better than 8500 and with the extra two years of warranty Denon at least has an incentive to QA it’s release quality. Mostly I can say it works, flawlessly as a prepro. Flawlessly! No surprise hiccups or dumb firmware release issues. I also like streaming ultra hd music via HEOS straight over my wifi at 24/192 without being limited via Bluetooth, airplay or having to buy a separate DAC. It also runs surprisingly cool. Much cooler than the Marantz SR 8012 it replaced. So guaranteed good SINAD numbers, good QA, good streaming via HEOS. Oh, and yes, I’m “not” using the internal amps. This will draw criticism from some readers as waisting money. But hey—it’s my money. I suppose I wish it had the two speaker presets but not sure what I’d use them for. The AVR already switches between sound modes. So,hmmm, drapes closed preset 1, drapes open preset 2? Not sure I’m that fussy. My two SVS subs switch between presets via a phone app. So again not sure what I’d use the two presets for. This will serve me very well until/unless ASR tests the lyngdorf MP 60 2.1 version or the trinnov altitude 16 and they show SINAD numbers above say 115. Right now I’m smugly content. Think of my purchase decision as mistake avoidance.

You said you don't use the internal amps, but do you know if it would be possible to use some of the internal amps to power some of the speakers, while using an external amp to power others?
I am thinking of powering FR, C, FL, SL, SR from an external amp, and the surround rears and ATMON from the AVR-A110.
Also, I recall reading with one of Denon's older AVR's (X3500H maybe), that the pre-out voltage drops significantly when also using the internal amps. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
 

peng

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You said you don't use the internal amps, but do you know if it would be possible to use some of the internal amps to power some of the speakers, while using an external amp to power others?
I am thinking of powering FR, C, FL, SL, SR from an external amp, and the surround rears and ATMON from the AVR-A110.
Also, I recall reading with one of Denon's older AVR's (X3500H maybe), that the pre-out voltage drops significantly when also using the internal amps. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

The X3500H, even X340H pre-out voltage will not drop just because you use internal amps. It is the SINAD that will start to drop quite quickly when the voltage exceeds about 1.4 V, to around 73.5 dB when it reaches 2 V. 73.5 dB SINAD is about 0.02% THD+N.
 

EB1000

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Denon uses HEOS for music streaming. HEOS does not support Deezer or Spotify HIFI (lossless). I only liked Denon because they offered Auro 3D, but now that Yamaha is offering Auro 3D, I don't see one single reason to buy Denon or Marantz, not even a 110 or 220 anniversary product...

Edit: One more thing - with Denon, you can't have the relative distance between speakers exceed 6 meters! So even with the AVR-A110, you're limited to only small rooms...
 

Golfx

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You said you don't use the internal amps, but do you know if it would be possible to use some of the internal amps to power some of the speakers, while using an external amp to power others?
I am thinking of powering FR, C, FL, SL, SR from an external amp, and the surround rears and ATMON from the AVR-A110.
Also, I recall reading with one of Denon's older AVR's (X3500H maybe), that the pre-out voltage drops significantly when also using the internal amps. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
You can use as many or as few internal amps as you like. Just use amp assign custom setting to disconnect internal amps you don’t use. I will bow to PENG’s answer on your second question.
 
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Descartes

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Denon uses HEOS for music streaming. HEOS does not support Deezer or Spotify HIFI (lossless). I only liked Denon because they offered Auro 3D, but now that Yamaha is offering Auro 3D, I don't see one single reason to buy Denon or Marantz, not even a 110 or 220 anniversary product...

Edit: One more thing - with Denon, you can't have the relative distance between speakers exceed 6 meters! So even with the AVR-A110, you're limited to only small rooms...

seriously!
 
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This receiver runs at about 115F when idling with the ECO mode "OFF" (full rail voltage at all times), the "AUTO" mode for ECO will allow the ECO (low) rail voltage until it senses a demand that exceeds it, then will switch to the high (full output) voltage. I'm inclined to use it since the unit runs about 15F cooler but am concerned that this rail voltage detection system may not react quickly enough and a type of TIM may result. Anyone have experience with these types of systems and if TIM distortion can result? - or is the switch to high rail voltage always in time for the transients?
 

peng

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This receiver runs at about 115F when idling with the ECO mode "OFF" (full rail voltage at all times), the "AUTO" mode for ECO will allow the ECO (low) rail voltage until it senses a demand that exceeds it, then will switch to the high (full output) voltage. I'm inclined to use it since the unit runs about 15F cooler but am concerned that this rail voltage detection system may not react quickly enough and a type of TIM may result. Anyone have experience with these types of systems and if TIM distortion can result? - or is the switch to high rail voltage always in time for the transients?

Unless they changed something for the 2020 models, the answer is no, that it will not switch instantaneously. Actually it does not even react to demand, but to the volume setting only. Say if you set the volume to -30, or 50 (or higher and this threshold may vary depending on the (model/year), ECO will not kick in at all except after the unit was in idling for a period of time (if I remember right on this.., its 2 minutes and would apply to the 2018 and newer models, not sure about the 2017/16 models). Conversely, you can have the volume at say -55, or 43, and ECO will be "On" full time even if the input signal (such as some Youtube contents or some high analog input source contents) happens to be very high, high enough to need the rail voltage well above what ECO would permit, resulting in clipping.

Denon's Eco Mode - what does it do exactly? | AVS Forum

Again, this applies to the older models such as 2018 models for sure, so all bets are off if the 2020 models are different, but you should be able to test it out for yourself easily.

Other than that, I share your concern and used to leave ECO off, but lately I went back to ECO auto because my volume setting is almost always high enough for ECO to be "On" anyway so there is no down side. The advantage of setting it to auto is that if I listen to Youtube, most of time it would be loud enough at volume below -30 so ECO will kick in, and for those contents I am not even concerned about THD, let alone TIM that really is no longer an issue as far as I can tell, for the current D+M AVRs. Also, if for some reason I have my AVR idling, such as with the input source turned off, then ECO would kick in after a period of time (don't know how long, just checked the manuals, its 2 minutes) regardless.
 
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bigguyca

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I wonder if the AVR-A110 will get upgraded with the HDMi 2.1 like the others

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x8500ha-marantz-av8805a

More than you asked, but anyway...

The current AVR-A110 is eligible for the free wart with a wall wart (called adapter by Denon) that "fixes" the HDMI problems of the 2020 Denon/Marantz units. With the adapter, which is available now, the A110 will have the same limited HDMI 2.1 capabilities as of the remainder of the 2020 products. It is unknown if the circuit board and the remainder of the inside of the adapter are the nice blackish color to match the inside of A110.

https://www.denon.com/en-us/hdmiadapter

The same HDMI capabilities as the 2020 units with the adapter are built into the updated digital board for the of the new 8805A and 8500HA. The same updated digital board will be installed for those who send $600 and their existing AV8805 or X8500H for upgrade. Since the A110 with the adapter will have the same capabilities that are provided with the updated digital board, the upgrade is not available, or evidently needed for the A110.

It would seem logical that at some point new A110's would have the upgraded digital board installed and would not need the adapter.

At present there seems to be no visibility into which serial numbers of current generation such as the A110, X6700H, etc., Denon products have the updated digital board already installed. Such products seem to not yet be available.
 

bigguyca

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This receiver runs at about 115F when idling with the ECO mode "OFF" (full rail voltage at all times), the "AUTO" mode for ECO will allow the ECO (low) rail voltage until it senses a demand that exceeds it, then will switch to the high (full output) voltage. I'm inclined to use it since the unit runs about 15F cooler but am concerned that this rail voltage detection system may not react quickly enough and a type of TIM may result. Anyone have experience with these types of systems and if TIM distortion can result? - or is the switch to high rail voltage always in time for the transients?


Thank you for the measurements. So few people seem to be able to provide measurements. Hot or warm aren't really helpful.

Complaining aside, FYI, I measured a X6700H. Long term at idle with ECO off the unit ran about 122F over the hottest area, which is a location over the power amplifier heatsink. Cooler over other portions of the heatsink. With ECO on the temperature was under 100F. These temperatures were measured with an infrared thermometer. The case is slotted in the area of the heatsink so the temperatures may be partly case and partly the top of the heat sink.

The X6700H as the same power amplifier modules and bias setting as the A110, that is, should generate similar amounts of heat, so clearly the A110 does a better job at rejecting heat.

At idle the X6700H drew:

ECO Mode on: 46W at idle, 66VA - a poor power factor

ECO Mode off: 97W at idle, 138VA - a poor power factor
 

user54

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I bet since they did increase the VA rating of the transformer slightly without increasing the external dimensions by using better core design, more tightly wound etc.. The new transformer may also have better efficiency, say from 97% to 99%. All those minor changes, plus margin of errors for those measurements could amount to the apparent difference in output power measurements show in those two Audiovision.de reviews. That's just speculation on my part.
I bet since they did increase the VA rating of the transformer slightly without increasing the external dimensions by using better core design, more tightly wound etc.. The new transformer may also have better efficiency, say from 97% to 99%. All those minor changes, plus margin of errors for those measurements could amount to the apparent difference in output power measurements show in those two Audiovision.de reviews. That's just speculation on my part.
hello, well, a linear transformer cannot have an efficiency of 97-99%, not every switching power supply can give 90, and in general the maximum efficiency will be 70-80% of its maximum current
 

peng

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hello, well, a linear transformer cannot have an efficiency of 97-99%, not every switching power supply can give 90, and in general the maximum efficiency will be 70-80% of its maximum current

The best transformers can do that, 99% may be a little rare (Okay you got me, I exaggerated to make a point about the possibility..) but 97-98% (except under light load conditions) should be quite possible and realistic, and high 80's to low 90's, say 89 to 95% should be quite common.

To be clear, I am just talking about power transformers.

Efficiency of Transformer | Electrical4U
 

peng

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how will it be possible, I will measure the efficiency of my transformer, and I will answer in this thread if possible) but I have 4700))

It will be difficult to measure the main power supply transformer inside the X4700H on its own without removing it.
There are two major losses, core loss and winding loss, and you can do an open circuit test and short circuit test to determine the losses and then calculate the efficiency. That's how students (I did anyway) would likely do it in their EE course experiments. If you manage to do it, please do post the results.

In the linked article, it cited "The transformer’s efficiency, in general, is in the range of 95 – 99 %. For large power transformers with very low losses, the efficiency can be as high as 99.7%. " The ones used in audio amplifiers would not be considered large power transformers, but I think it is reasonable to still expect better (or even much better) than 90% at rated output. By the way, I only mentioned increased transformer efficiency as one of the possible reasons that might have contributed to the slightly higher measured output as shown in the Audiovision.de bench test; and the fact that the transformer looks quite different but similar in size to the one in the X8500H. Again, it is very speculative on my part, just a talking point. The increased output per Audiovision.de's measurements are not that much (in dB) anyway.
 

KC-Narnia

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I returned a couple of Anthem units (720, 740, AVM70) for the A110. The Anthems just had too many bugs, always messing with something to get it working almost every time I used it. For me it needs to be easy or the wife ain't happy. With the A110 it has worked perfect from day one with zero issues. The reason I chose it over the 8500 was what I perceive as a higher quality unit with upgraded caps, circuit boards and HDMI 2.1 for future plus longer warranty. As silly as it sounds I use it with external amps in 2 channel pure direct mode and 5.0 only.
Very happy with my decision, unit sounds great.

I am also quite silly :) I'm only using 2.0 on mine and i'm loving it. Upgraded from a Denon AVC-X8500H yesterday.
A110.jpg
 

radix

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Tthinking about the Ci3160rlb-THX in wall subs to go under each of the surrounds and backs.

I already have a pair of Ci200RR-THX in the ceiling (will add two more pairs).

Steve, did you ever get the Ci3160rlb? I am looking at using 2 of those for my living room for general subs. The specs look good.

Thanks,
Marc
 
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