Denon AVR-A10H 13.4-Channel Receiver announced!

[burkm]

You should avoid the reduced impedance setting on any AVR by all means. Don't use this option !

The "reduced" impedance setting is not really a "reduced" speaker impedance setting, because transistorized power amps have already a very low output impedance, which is not hampered in any ways by speaker impedance. The mentioned reduction will usually lower the rail-voltages of the power transistors, which in turn reduces the amperage flowing through the power amps and by Ohms law (U*I = wattage) will reduce the output of those channels "a lot". Almost all experts, reviewers and tests therefor will warn you about that mentioned reduction ("avoid it")...

You will get a somewhat reduced temperature scenario but much reduced channel output. Note: Those manufactures recommend this mostly because of CE temperature rules.
This might not say that much to You, but output power per channel will even be halfed (or even lower) because of those actions compared to that usual output for those speakers.

 

[GSM58]

Thanks for your feedback. I will check asap inpedence setting

I have the Dennon A10H and I changed it to
4 ohms.
All my boxes are connected to the receiver. Economy mode turns off automatically. I lost absolutely nothing in terms of power. I did a simulation between 8ohms and 4ohms and the power of the receiver is still absurd. A lot of dynamics with box control.
I like to listen out loud and if I felt a loss of power or distortion I would go back to 8ohms without thinking twice.
Now it works cool and I don't have to worry about the temperature.
Here it was perfect and I don't need to go back to 8ohms.
I already had the Integra DRX 8.4 and Onkyo RZ-50 and left it in 8 ohms. They didn't heat anything. Dennon heats up so much to the point of being worrying. And it's still in the manual to leave according to the impedance of the boxes.
Now if the person wants to leave it at 8ohms and wants to take the risk it was not for lack of warning.
Do a test with your A10H and then tell us. And repair the temperature with impedance change.

Hugs and congratulations on the beautiful receiver.

 

[DTSman]

I have done a test yeasterday by forcing Eco Mode all the time.

The power consumption has dropped by about 70-80W. And after 3 hours of use the amp is just lukewarm. I haven't noticed any change in the quality or dynamics of the sound. The A10H only amplifies the front wides, surround back, front height and top middle (all surround and atmos speakers are JBL Pro 8320, so easy to drive). I think I will stay all the time in Eco mode enable.

 

[GSM58]

I have done a test yeasterday by forcing Eco Mode all the time.

The power consumption has dropped by about 70-80W. And after 3 hours of use the amp is just lukewarm. I haven't noticed any change in the quality or dynamics of the sound. The A10H only amplifies the front wides, surround back, front height and top middle (all surround and atmos speakers are JBL Pro 8320, so easy to drive). I think I will stay all the time in Eco mode enable.

The 10H is a horse and will work loose with its 91dB boxes. I entered the JBL website and couldn't find the impedance of your boxes. It must be 8ohms. Then try to find it to be sure.

Great week!

 

[DTSman]

Indeed speaker impedance is well 8ohms:

https://jblpro.com/en/site_elements/8320-spec-sheet

 

[GSM58]

Indeed speaker impedance is well 8ohms:

https://jblpro.com/en/site_elements/8320-spec-sheet

So just leave it in 8 ohms and be happy!

 

[peng]

I have done a test yeasterday by forcing Eco Mode all the time.

The power consumption has dropped by about 70-80W. And after 3 hours of use the amp is just lukewarm. I haven't noticed any change in the quality or dynamics of the sound. The A10H only amplifies the front wides, surround back, front height and top middle (all surround and atmos speakers are JBL Pro 8320, so easy to drive). I think I will stay all the time in Eco mode enable.

Somewhat same as the so called 4 ohm impedance setting, in Eco mode, the unit would also reduce rail voltage. That limits voltage, therefore current as well. Such limits do not matter if your speakers do not demand high enough current, but if they do (and that would likely be only during some very high peak demands in certain parts of certain media contents), then the lower voltage enforced by those low impedance settings or ECO settings would obviously does it job. When that happens, the effects will be less dynamics, whether you would notice it or not would obviously depends on multiple factors.

For many users, they wouldn't want to lose anything in sound quality, so they would take the advice of some (such as Gene/Audioholics) and leave it at the default 8 ohm setting, and not use ECO. ECO auto is a good compromise as it would engage on "as needed" basis, it is a compromise because D+M, and presumable others such as Onkyo and Yamaha as well (though may be not be the same), because in "auto", there will be a time delay as it would switch between Eco on/off according to the volume setting, not really based on the need for power. For example, let's say it would be on when volume is higher than -30, it would not go "off" when you change volume to -25 right away, but would take a while (usually longer than a few seconds). That means, during those high short burst peaks such as from explosion scenes, you would still lose the impacts because ECO just won't react fast enough to switch off in time for those peaks.

Since you seem willing to "test", I would mention the following about another test you can do, only if you are interested:

Above mentioned were factual based on D+M's customer support response to questions a few years back and some forums members had done tests to confirm the behavior (including my own), so the recent models might behave differently, hopefully improved. You can confirm it by adjusting the volume to hear the "clicks" and time it for yourself if you want to.


Anyway, discussion on this topic seemed quite popular on forums a few years ago, most users would just follow the manufacturers recommendations thinking that is the safe choice; and they likely wouldn't notice the little set backs in sound quality as the real world impacts are only going to be noticeable in some occasions under some use conditions and not everyone are sensitive/discerning enough to notice.

@burkm 's post#121 would represent those who just wouldn't take a chance, and he explained it very well though those who are not interested in the technical side of things may not want to be bothered. As to the concerns about take a chance on the other side of the coin, that is, about the potentially damaging the amp if using so called 4 ohm speakers (really a misnomer in many such cases) without using the 4 ohm setting, I would have to say that is really only an issue if the user would just crank things up without listening to the unit's complaints, typically in terms of audible harshness and/or even noticeable distortions. Either way, it is up to the user's own priority, no right or wrong, risk taking or not..

 

[Oddball]

As usual, Peng has nailed it. I would say that loss of dynamics should be audible as peaks come really quickly and AVR response is delayed. Not the end of the world, but also not ideal.

If you don't want to count of the AVR managing itself, then AVR heat management is an interesting topic. Modern AVRs do tend to run hot, and components inside are rated to certain specs that excessive heat degrades so it basically translates into shorter useful life. Some people just give enough breading room to the AVR for the air circulation, some put it in racks with AC, others have outside AC unit close to the gear, and some use external fans.

The worst case is putting the AVR in a shelf that does not provide it with sufficient ventilation. AC is probably the best, followed by the external fans.

 

[peng]

As usual, Peng has nailed it. I would say that loss of dynamics should be audible as peaks come really quickly and AVR response is delayed. Not the end of the world, but also not ideal.

If you don't want to count of the AVR managing itself, then AVR heat management is an interesting topic. Modern AVRs do tend to run hot, and components inside are rated to certain specs that excessive heat degrades so it basically translates into shorter useful life. Some people just give enough breading room to the AVR for the air circulation, some put it in racks with AC, others have outside AC unit close to the gear, and some use external fans.

The worst case is putting the AVR in a shelf that does not provide it with sufficient ventilation. AC is probably the best, followed by the external fans.

Agreed,

Just to add my two more cents:

- Some AVRs such as D+M's are known to run a little warm, vs Yamaha's. Probably Anthem's too, as there seem to have many user feedback on forum about fan noise, that indicate those build in fans do tend to turn on to deal with the heat, whereas D+M's fans seem to remain off even if owners felt the enclosures were warm to the touch. That could also mean Anthem's team might warm to play safe, to avoid warranty claims, whereas D+M, might be more confident they their AVRs could handle the heat without risking complaints of fan noise, while still mange to keep heat related damages that might increase warranty claims.

- In my experience, the AVRs mentioned tend to run warm even just idling, and/or listening at low spl, driving 8 ohm nominal speakers, that indicates the heat is mainly due to bias currents, and that is the main reason why the 4 ohm setting and ECO mode's lower rail voltage could reduce the heat produced, as lower rail voltage generally means lower bias current too. My Bryston 4B SST also would run surprisingly warm just idling, yet it has tons of heatsinks and comes with a 20 year warranty, just expiring this year. Lots of the concerns about D+M AVRs being warm are just concerns, likely won't matter in terms of their useful life (say 10 year or shorter mainly because of obsolesce, not because of failures).

- For those who worry regardless, whether the worry (or just want to play safe) is about sound quality or premature failure, a low cost near silent fan is an excellent option, much better than relying on the impedance setting or ECO, on or auto, in my opinion. Just cautionary, even with the 4 ohm setting, if one does not pay attention to the volume setting, among other things, one could still sustain damages to either the AVR, or the speakers (for example, due to heavy/frequent clipping). At the end of the day, the important thing is, the user should use the devices/equipment accordingly.

 

[Oddball]

Agreed,

Just to add my two more cents:

- Some AVRs such as D+M's are known to run a little warm, vs Yamaha's. Probably Anthem's too, as there seem to have many user feedback on forum about fan noise, that indicate those build in fans do tend to turn on to deal with the heat, whereas D+M's fans seem to remain off even if owners felt the enclosures were warm to the touch. That could also mean Anthem's team might warm to play safe, to avoid warranty claims, whereas D+M, might be more confident they their AVRs could handle the heat without risking complaints of fan noise, while still mange to keep heat related damages that might increase warranty claims.

- In my experience, the AVRs mentioned tend to run warm even just idling, and/or listening at low spl, driving 8 ohm nominal speakers, that indicates the heat is mainly due to bias currents, and that is the main reason why the 4 ohm setting and ECO mode's lower rail voltage could reduce the heat produced, as lower rail voltage generally means lower bias current too. My Bryston 4B SST also would run surprisingly warm just idling, yet it has tons of heatsinks and comes with a 20 year warranty, just expiring this year. Lots of the concerns about D+M AVRs being warm are just concerns, likely won't matter in terms of their useful life (say 10 year or shorter mainly because of obsolesce, not because of failures).

- For those who worry regardless, whether the worry (or just want to play safe) is about sound quality or premature failure, a low cost near silent fan is an excellent option, much better than relying on the impedance setting or ECO, on or auto, in my opinion. Just cautionary, even with the 4 ohm setting, if one does not pay attention to the volume setting, among other things, one could still sustain damages to either the AVR, or the speakers (for example, due to heavy/frequent clipping). At the end of the day, the important thing is, the user should use the devices/equipment accordingly.

Agreed that there are many different angles with different brands. And ultimately it is up to the user to decide. But would not be surprised if after 5 years some D&M units might fail as they were not heat managed well enough. This could put D&M's reliability at question for no good reason as it was caused by the users.

I honestly think that Anthem might have a better approach. It's loud so there might be better ways of dealing with it but the flag was raised.

I luckily don't participate in the AVR market any more, but the only thing I really disliked about my 6700H was the heat. Even in pre-amp mode it was able to do scrambled eggs in less than 3 minutes.

 

[GSM58]

Agreed that there are many different angles with different brands. And ultimately it is up to the user to decide. But would not be surprised if after 5 years some D&M units might fail as they were not heat managed well enough. This could put D&M's reliability at question for no good reason as it was caused by the users.

I honestly think that Anthem might have a better approach. It's loud so there might be better ways of dealing with it but the flag was raised.

I luckily don't participate in the AVR market any more, but the only thing I really disliked about my 6700H was the heat. Even in pre-amp mode it was able to do scrambled eggs in less than 3 minutes.

There really is nothing worse than a receiver on fire.

After I set up the A10H for 4ohms, it works very fresh. And I didn't miss any dynamics. I like to listen to the multichannel shows and the movies out loud and I tell you that the dynamics are absurd. Sometimes I don't believe it's a receiver. This Denon is different.

Without a doubt, they got the right hand with this Denon.

 

[GSM58]

Oddball, do you remember that I was trying to sell my integrated Gryphon Atilla to get an Accuphase?

Look how good God is. I managed to sell the Gryphon very well and bought the Accuphase E-5000.

Dude, this integrated is a work of art and plays too much. The niche is a 34 Kg beast.

Imagine a happy guy.

 

[Oddball]

Once you venture out of the AVR world into the world of hot amps it will just meant you have to manage different kind of heat. Most high end amps will have a bias/offset and gain setting on the board that you can adjust. Both of them will eventually give you the heat signature. D-class is a different matter but did not have meaningful live experiences with them.

Per Bryston recommendation, I am not keeping the offset low for my Brystons 4B SST2 (which are different than 4B SST that @peng referenced) as they are supposed to run at 40-60C in a room that is 25C. But they do have the parts that are able to withstand that heat, at least based on my 15Y experience thus far.

 

[GSM58]

Once you venture out of the AVR world into the world of hot amps it will just meant you have to manage different kind of heat. Most high end amps will have a bias/offset and gain setting on the board that you can adjust. Both of them will eventually give you the heat signature. D-class is a different matter but did not have meaningful live experiences with them.

Per Bryston recommendation, I am not keeping the offset low for my Brystons 4B SST2 (which are different than 4B SST that @peng referenced) as they are supposed to run at 40-60C in a room that is 25C. But they do have the parts that are able to withstand that heat, at least based on my 15Y experience thus far.

Yes, I agree, it will depend on each project.

To give you an idea, Gryphon worked very hot and stayed here for 10 years. But it was on top of the rack with a lot of cooling
Accuphase works much fresher with the same boxes. Each case is a case.

 

[bo_knows]

Oddball, do you remember that I was trying to sell my integrated Gryphon Atilla to get an Accuphase?

Look how good God is. I managed to sell the Gryphon very well and bought the Accuphase E-5000.

Dude, this integrated is a work of art and plays too much. The niche is a 34 Kg beast.

Imagine a happy guy.

Oddball, do you remember that I was trying to sell my integrated Gryphon Atilla to get an Accuphase?

Look how good God is. I managed to sell the Gryphon very well and bought the Accuphase E-5000.

Dude, this integrated is a work of art and plays too much. The niche is a 34 Kg beast.

Imagine a happy guy.

Congratulations! Is there an audible difference from Attila? Oops, sorry, I meant Atilla.

 

[GSM58]

Congratulations! Is there an audible difference from Attila? Oops, sorry, I meant Atilla.

Thank you, friend!

A lot, but here people think everything is the same. So, let's change the subject.

 

[DTSman]

Peng,

Like X6800, the audible click when the switch Eco on to off , occurs when master level is greater than -30db.

I am just surprised that A10H is more hot than my previous X6800 with same speakers and settings.

I have also ordered a Noctua NF A20 fan to test using AVR USB 5v port.

 

[bo_knows]

Thank you, friend!

A lot, but here people think everything is the same. So, let's change the subject.

I understand and will take your word for it. Besides the sound signature, Accuphase looks way better aesthetically (IMHO). I'm happy for you.

 

[GSM58]

I understand and will take your word for it. Besides the sound signature, Accuphase looks way better aesthetically (IMHO). I'm happy for you.

Thank you for the words.

In terms of beauty and construction, the japa is impressive.

Hug !

 

[GSM58]

Peng,

Like X6800, the audible click when the switch Eco on to off , occurs when master level is greater than -30db.

I am just surprised that A10H is more hot than my previous X6800 with same speakers and settings.

I have also ordered a Noctua NF A20 fan to test using AVR USB 5v port.

If you take it out of Eco mode, this click disappears.

Try to increase the distance from the top shelf of your rack. It's not to get too hot with your boxes.