Denon AVR-A10H 13.4-Channel Receiver announced!

[Guilherme66]

In theory/or fact, most people should have no issues with using a mid range AVR, let alone a flagship AVR such as yours. Unfortunately the internet is flooded with so many posts based on internet hearsay, such that many potential buyers might get get concerned about the so called lack of high current capabilities that AVRs suffer from, that is true for certain applications (yet many such posters would make generalized statements based on such specific cases where even many ext. power amps wouldn't be good enough), but a huge myth for most applications where the users are not crazy enough to sit far away such as >5 meters, use truly 4 ohm nominal and/or sensitivity <86 dB speakers and listen to near reference level and/or listen in all channel stereo mode for long durations. Your came to the right place, ask questions, analyze the responses, then make your choice and the results are therefore sort of expected.

In extreme cases, the likes of the A10H, RZ70, C30, A8A etc., can drive even some of the so called difficult to drive 4 ohms/with high phase angles speakers easily if the distance is <4m, speaker sensitivity >87 dB, listening to 95 dB max/peak, including speakers that may dip down to 2 ohms in a few frequency points in the bass band. Also in extreme cases, one may need multiple monoblock amps such as the Mc 2kW, if one use speakers that have dips to 2 ohms or below at multiple points, high phase angles >45 degrees also at multiple frequency points in the bass band, and needs SPL at or near reference level from >5m. Point is, can't, shouldn't generalize in terms the need of receivers vs ext. power amps for transparent, non clipping performance. The fact is, some receivers may be more "powerful" than many "external" power amps anyway, especially for real world use

I agree 100% with your post.

I believe that a large dedicated cinema room with several rows of armchairs with 7.2.4 system requires an external amplifier to relieve the receiver.
Other than that, I consider it a waste to use external amplifier with all top-of-the-line AVRs.
Boxes with low sensitivity and 4 ohms demand current, that's a fact!
In my case I don't feel the slightest need to use an external amplifier, but each case is a case.
We just don't need to separate the multichannel from the stereo.
A top-of-the-line receiver will never play like a medium-up integrated.
We have to understand that the receiver was born to simulate a movie theater. Of course you can listen to music, but never with an integrated quality, pre + power.

I have an integrated Gryphon Atilla that beats Denon on Stereo. There's no way to compare banana with apple.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I agree 100% with your post.

I believe that a large dedicated cinema room with several rows of armchairs with 7.2.4 system requires an external amplifier to relieve the receiver.
Other than that, I consider it a waste to use external amplifier with all top-of-the-line AVRs.
Boxes with low sensitivity and 4 ohms demand current, that's a fact!
In my case I don't feel the slightest need to use an external amplifier, but each case is a case.

I use an AVR-X4700h with external (Buckeye) amplification, because I use active crossovers, which you can't do with the built-in amps in an integrated receiver.

 

[bo_knows]

I agree 100% with your post.

I believe that a large dedicated cinema room with several rows of armchairs with 7.2.4 system requires an external amplifier to relieve the receiver.
Other than that, I consider it a waste to use external amplifier with all top-of-the-line AVRs.
Boxes with low sensitivity and 4 ohms demand current, that's a fact!
In my case I don't feel the slightest need to use an external amplifier, but each case is a case.
We just don't need to separate the multichannel from the stereo.
A top-of-the-line receiver will never play like a medium-up integrated.
We have to understand that the receiver was born to simulate a movie theater. Of course you can listen to music, but never with an integrated quality, pre + power.

I have an integrated Gryphon Atilla that beats Denon on Stereo. There's no way to compare banana with apple.

Of course, it beats Denon, just look at that name! Attila the Hun! Those clever Gryphon marketers, misspelling the name.

 

[masterhw]

A top-of-the-line receiver will never play like a medium-up integrated.

this line will stir the thread, lol. So since its going to be asked, why can't a receiver play like an integrated? Where would we look to measure such a difference?

 

[Guilherme66]

Claro, ele supera Denon, olha só esse nome! Átila, o Huno! Aqueles espertos marqueteiros de Gryphon, escrevendo o nome errado.

Você pode comprar Gryphon Diablo. Eu garanto que você vai gostar do diabo. Kkkkkkkkk
Sério! Não há como comparar equipamento dedicado HI-FI / High-End Stereo com AVR.

 

[Guilherme66]

I use an AVR-X4700h with external (Buckeye) amplification, because I use active crossovers, which you can't do with the built-in amps in an integrated receiver.

In your case it makes perfect sense.

 

[Guilherme66]

this line will stir the thread, lol. So since its going to be asked, why can't a receiver play like an integrated? Where would we look to measure such a difference?

When an equipment is dedicated to Stereo, it receives the best components for two channels. You don't need to share the power with other channels. In this regard alone, it already beats an AVR.

When I turn on my Gryphon the difference is absurd in quality. It's from water to wine.

The receiver in addition to the audio has the priority of the video. It's practically a computer.

 

[peng]

You can buy Gryphon Diablo. I guarantee you that you will like the devil. Kkkkkkkkk
Seriously! There is no way to compare dedicated HI-FI / High-End equipment to Stereo with AVR.

Haha no thanks, no way, I don't prefer integrated. Also, for me, it is either AVRs/AVPs+power amps or separates, ie. as separated as possible. But not Gryphon's as I don't have a fork truck in my house, and have a 3.5 ton AC only.

Serious, jokes aside, going by specs, measurements, and Gryphon's design philosophy, I would bet in a DBT session, sitting from say 4 meters listening to 75 dB spl average in pure direct mode driving neutral sounding speakers such as the KEF Blade, no one can ID the Diablos and the A10H scoring more than 7 out of 10 trials. It is a bet I won't lose obviously as no one is going to do one to prove anything lol... Note: To potentially save any debate that I won't bother participating, differences would be heard under some other, or certain conditions, obviously.

 

[Guilherme66]

Haha no thanks, no way, I don't prefer integrated. Also, for me, it is either AVRs/AVPs+power amps or separates, ie. as separated as possible. But not Gryphon's as I don't have a fork truck in my house, and have a 3.5 ton AC only.

Serious, jokes aside, going by specs, measurements, and Gryphon's design philosophy, I would bet in a DBT session, sitting from say 4 meters listening to 75 dB spl average in pure direct mode driving neutral sounding speakers such as the KEF Blade, no one can ID the Diablos and the A10H scoring more than 7 out of 10 trials. It is a bet I won't lose obviously as no one is going to do one to prove anything lol... Note: To potentially save any debate that I won't bother participating, differences would be heard under some other, or certain conditions, obviously.

You can be sure that if a person is not deaf, they will notice a huge difference in their hearing. You don't need to be an expert on the subject to know that dedicated equipment will always be superior. I tested it at home and I don't need to prove anything to anyone. They are different equipment. Banana x Apple. Otherwise, I would only sell Receivers.
High-End equipment like Accuphase, Luxman, Dartzell, Boulder, T+A, Gryphon, Hegel, Mark Levinson, MBL, etc. Are in another world.
Now, that the Denon A10H has fantastic audio, that's a fact!

 

[peng]

You can be sure that if a person is not deaf, they will notice a huge difference in their hearing. You don't need to be an expert on the subject to know that dedicated equipment will always be superior. I tested it at home and I don't need to prove anything to anyone. They are different equipment. Banana x Apple. Otherwise, I would only sell Receivers.
High-End equipment like Accuphase, Luxman, Dartzell, Boulder, T+A, Gryphon, Hegel, Mark Levinson, MBL, etc. Are in another world.
Now, that the Denon A10H has fantastic audio, that's a fact!

As I said I wouldn't debate anyone on such claims. I know full well that no proof is necessary when one just believes. Good thing you are still happy with your A10H.

 

[Guilherme66]

Como eu disse, eu não debateria com ninguém sobre tais alegações. Eu sei muito bem que nenhuma prova é necessária quando alguém apenas acredita. Ainda bem que você ainda está feliz com seu A10H.

Obrigado meu amigo!

No dia em que você tiver a oportunidade de visitar um sistema estéreo dedicado, não perca. É uma experiência muito legal.
Eu pensei o mesmo que você, mas depois que conheci um bom sistema dedicado de perto, é realmente um mundo diferente. Multicanal é super legal e eu adoro, mas estéreo é uma coisa diferente.

Meu sistema está completamente desmontado por causa da montagem do painel. Estou trabalhando na acústica da sala com novos difusores e painéis acústicos... Ainda preciso mudar a cor do rack para combinar com o painel da TV. No final, vale a pena o esforço.

Grande abraço!

 

[Oddball]

As I said I wouldn't debate anyone on such claims. I know full well that no proof is necessary when one just believes. Good thing you are still happy with your A10H.

As you say belief is a very powerful tool and A10H will be plenty for most.

I am not a good believer, so high end brands will not capture much of my disposable income, except in the speaker space. We do have everything else figured out in audio at more or less reasonable prices, but speakers are still a problem. I recently heard a pair of these and I can't even find words to describe how good they sound. But the $30+K price .

Kii THREE BXT Lifestyle & Listening - Kii Audio

Experience unparalleled audio in any room with the Kii THREE BXT system. Designed for the ultimate music lover, this upgrade offers crystal-clear sound and a room-friendly design, ensuring your music is pure and immersive without dominating your space. With 7,000 watts of power and advanced...

www.kiiaudio.com

 

[Guilherme66]

Como você disse, a crença é uma ferramenta muito poderosa e o A10H será suficiente para a maioria.

Não sou um bom crente, então marcas de ponta não capturarão muito da minha renda disponível, exceto no espaço para alto-falantes. Temos todo o resto planejado em áudio a preços mais ou menos razoáveis, mas os alto-falantes ainda são um problema. Recentemente ouvi um par desses e não consegui encontrar palavras para descrever o quão bons eles soam. Mas o preço de US$ 30+K alma na cara:.

Kii THREE BXT Lifestyle & Listening - Kii Audio

Experience unparalleled audio in any room with the Kii THREE BXT system. Designed for the ultimate music lover, this upgrade offers crystal-clear sound and a room-friendly design, ensuring your music is pure and immersive without dominating your space. With 7,000 watts of power and advanced...

www.kiiaudio.com

No one said the A10H isn't enough for most people. I just wrote that dedicated stereo equipment sounds MUCH better.

Speakers are the end of the system. I agree that good speakers are very expensive. Always try to buy the best speaker your money will allow, but there is no point in buying high-end speakers like B&W 800, Dynaudio Confidence, Focal Sopra/Utopia, Gauder Berlina... to play with a receiver. That's what integrated speakers, pre- and power-units and high-end monoblocks are for. It's like buying a Porsche 911 to drive on soft ground. You're just throwing money away. There's no point in buying a Dartzell to play with an entry-level Klipsch.

Let's talk about the Denon A10H, because I already miss it...

 

[Oddball]

No one said that the A10H isn't enough for most people. I just wrote that dedicated stereo equipment sounds MUCH better.

The speakers are the end of the system. I agree that good speakers are very expensive. Always try to buy the best speaker that your money allows, but there's no point in buying top-of-the-line speakers like B&W 800, Dynaudio Confidence, Focal Sopra/Utopia, Gauder Berlina... to play with a receiver. It's the same thing as buying a Porsche 911 to drive on soft ground. You're just throwing money away. It doesn't make sense to buy a Dartzell to play with an entry-level Klipsch.

Let's talk about the Denon A10H, because I already miss it...

Just a final thought before we go back to the awesome A10H.

I do have "separates" and parts of it would be "dedicated stereo equipment", like Brystons 4SST2. The only reason I have that (as opposed to AVR) is that sometimes I do like to crank it up to the tilt (say +5dB master volume) with 13 channels. Not often as obviously not good for the hearing organs, but that was the design requirement to enable the "treat" and "stupid" moments as well as to avoid any damage to the gear.

As far as the speakers, unfortunately passive speakers are in the penalty box nowadays, even if called Nautilus or Utopia. Actives are obviously the future, but still way too expensive, especially the best ones.

 

[Svend P]

You can be sure that if a person is not deaf, they will notice a huge difference in their hearing.

You might be a golden-eared audiophile...

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Guilherme66]

Just a final thought before we go back to the awesome A10H.

I do have "separates" and parts of it would be "dedicated stereo equipment", like Brystons 4SST2. The only reason I have that (as opposed to AVR) is that sometimes I do like to crank it up to the tilt (say +5dB master volume) with 13 channels. Not often as obviously not good for the hearing organs, but that was the design requirement to enable the "treat" and "stupid" moments as well as to avoid any damage to the gear.

As far as the speakers, unfortunately passive speakers are in the penalty box nowadays, even if called Nautilus or Utopia. Actives are obviously the future, but still way too expensive, especially the best ones.

I looked at your signature and you have great equipment. Congratulations!

Active speakers are the future, but they are absurdly expensive. Just yesterday I was looking at the new Dynaudio Confidence Ativa and I was drooling. The only bad thing is that if there is a problem with the amplification you won't be able to listen to the speakers.
My dream is to have a room dedicated to the stereo and another for the cinema... the best of both worlds, but unfortunately large properties here in Brazil are VERY expensive.
Currently my entire system is in the living room and I still get great sound. I made a dedicated electrical system for the stereo and the multichannel, which made a lot of difference. I separated a disconnect switch from the power panel with two independent cables for audio. I use a socket with 4 Furutech/Oyaide sockets to connect the Gryphon, Tom Evans phono preamp, A10H and the JL sub. The other socket connects the TV, JVC projector, Apple TV and Oppo 203. This distribution worked well.

 

[Guilherme66]

You might be a golden-eared audiophile...

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm nothing .... My ears are normal. I'm just not deaf... kkkkkkk

 

[masterhw]

It is for finite budget/time/space constraints I think many of us ended up in this thread. Even if you enjoy stereo and multichannel on their own, you're duplicating an awful lot of kit by keeping totally separate signal paths. Unless one has a very allowing budget, it is simply more pragmatic to go for a great AVR which does both competently rather than a just alright AVR and a just alright stereo. The high-end Denons already use the Sabre ESS DACs of premium stereo gear, some have toroidal transformers - they're not just high end for an AVR, they're high end!
I strongly recommend reading Bruno Putzeys, the father of the modern Class D amp and co-creator of the above Kii active speaker, who shared his thoughts on dedicated vs integrated kit in this article, beginning at the heading "A Broken Model".

 

[Guilherme66]

It is for finite budget/time/space constraints I think many of us ended up in this thread. Even if you enjoy stereo and multichannel on their own, you're duplicating an awful lot of kit by keeping totally separate signal paths. Unless one has a very allowing budget, it is simply more pragmatic to go for a great AVR which does both competently rather than a just alright AVR and a just alright stereo. The high-end Denons already use the Sabre ESS DACs of premium stereo gear, some have toroidal transformers - they're not just high end for an AVR, they're high end!
I strongly recommend reading Bruno Putzeys, the father of the modern Class D amp and co-creator of the above Kii active speaker, who shared his thoughts on dedicated vs integrated kit in this article, beginning at the heading "A Broken Model".

Money really makes it hard to realize your dream systems. If I had money to spare, I would have two separate systems in separate rooms.
For the multichannel setup, I would just swap the Evoke 25 center speaker for the Contour 25C
The stereo system would be as follows. Integrated Accuphase E800/E5000 with Dynaudio Confidence 20 + my Transrotor Crescendo Nero turntable + my Tom Evans Phono Preamp + my Aurender A10/ Eversolo A10.

It costs nothing to dream!

 

[bo_knows]

Money really makes it hard to realize your dream systems. If I had money to spare, I would have two separate systems in separate rooms.
For the multichannel setup, I would just swap the Evoke 25 center speaker for the Contour 25C
The stereo system would be as follows. Integrated Accuphase E800/E5000 with Dynaudio Confidence 20 + my Transrotor Crescendo Nero turntable + my Tom Evans Phono Preamp + my Aurender A10/ Eversolo A10.

It costs nothing to dream!

And if you are going to dream, dream BIG!