Denon 3800h, Onkyo TX-RZ30 or Pioneer VSX-LX505 as pre-processor, or other suggestions?

[EZenderink]

Hi All!

I'd like to hear some opinions or suggestions on how you would approach the current predicament that I find myself in.

Let's get the basic question out first, and then proceed with some context:

I am looking for a small-ish (in AVR sizes) pre-processor with for around 1000 euro's. I have a few requirements:

• Small(ish), not a hard limit but I have not the most space in my TV furniture (49cm wide and 39cm high and 38cm deep + ~8 cm for wiring).
  • Should not run too hot as well as it is closed off enclosure by a door (the back is open but not really any airflow).
• HDMI 2.1
• Pre-Outs for 5.2.4 setup.

I have found the following AVR's that meet my requirements:

• Denon 3800H: 1099, but got a offer for 999.
• Onkyo TX-RZ30: 1299, refurbished (w/ full waranty): 1099 (no Offer for new ones asked yet)
• Pioneer VSX-LX505: 899 (but I believe it might be out of stock, so perhaps not possible).

In addition I have found a refurbished Denon 4700 for 1199 (full warranty) or a second hand one at 1000, but with no Dirac support (see below for my concerns).

So now for some additional context to why I am a looking for a solution with the above requirements.

I am currently using a Marantz AV7703 which I got a good deal on a year ago. I use it together with 5 Fosi V3 mono's + 2 ZA3's for the heights, all connected using XLR. The speakers are 4x Mordaunt Shorts 908's + 905 for the center, 4x 302's for the heights, + two tannoy mercury msub 10's. So nothing too fancy at all.

Furthermore, I am using a Apple TV, Kodi mediaplayer (odroid N2+) and my desktop PC (using fiber optic hdmi through wall ).
The Marantz works perfectly fine, but there are a few erm, inconveniences in my current setup. The Marantz is HUGE, for only being a pre-amp I find it baffeling that it has to be this chonky. Due to its size it does not fit nicely in my TV furniture. I am currently solving this by having the Marantz sit off to the side in a niche about 3 meters away, that I intended to use for some vintage audio equipment in the near future. When my home was build I added some additional piping through the wall (19mm wide) to the niche to run some RCA's through, but not much more.

So, how do I get my 11 XLR wires through such a tiny tube? Well I use the following 4x XLR to RJ45 STP converters and vice versa... times 3. Wait 11 XLR? Yes the jank doesn't end there, I butchered some XLR cables to make some XLR to RCA and RCA to XLR converts to also pass through my subs... sigh.

But boy, its not over yet. For media playback (Kodi & Apple TV) the HDMI 2.0(b?) on my marantz would work just fine, but since those are part of my TV furniture, I would have to route multiple HDMI cables back and forth to my Marantz. And there is no more room in that 19mm tube in my wall.

Additionally, I want to make use of my TV's capability to display 120hz while gaming, which the Marantz does not have support for. And there is no e-arc (not that it would've mattered, as it appears , you cannot use dolby atmos on a PC and then route it through the TV using E-arc, something something licensing and driver support and coroporate profits... sigh again).

So how have I solved this predicament? Well yes, a HDMI 2.1 splitter from UGREEN, into a chineese HDMI 2.1 Audio extractor which splits the audio portion of to my AV7703 (unfortunately this cable did NOT fit through my wall...) and the display content to my TV.... The Marantz being a end-point device in this setup. And what would you know, it works... most of the time. It's just all a bit impractical.

The solution? A smaller AVR/Processor with support for HDMI 2.1.

The AVR's that I found that matches my requirements and price range are the Onkyo TX-RZ30, Pioneer VSX-LX505 and the Denon 3800H. I believe that the Onkyo and Pioneer might share the same components as they are from the same parent company?

So when comparing/researching these I noticed the following.

• The Denon 3800H is of overall better quality I read, but has a lesser DAC stage compared to the Onkyo and Pioneer (but would I even be able to hear that?)
  • I can't find measurements for the RZ30 here on the site, but I believe since its from the same parent company it might be similar to the Pioneer VSX-LX505, which measures decent on the pre-amp department.
  • The Denon 3800H allows for disabling the internal amplifiers to run as pre-amp only, while the Pioneer and TX-RZ30 does not. Though I read some conflicting information on the RZ30's capabilities in that regard. Still, the Pioneer appears to measure relatively well as a preamp even with the internal amps enabled.
    • I am wondering for power consumption/heat, would leaving the internal amplifiers on while not connected to speakers cause increase in power consumption and thermals, e.g. compared to the 3800h?
• The Denon 3800H has a buy-in Dirac room correction while the Onkyo and Pioneer have dirac by default. I am currently using the Audyssey XT32 room correction from the Marantz which I only use for 400 hz and below as it reduces clarity in the frequencies above that (personal preference perhaps?), so reading about Dirac, I feel that would be a worth while upgrade... But I am not discontent with my current room calibration... And since the denon also has 32XT I atleast won't be downgrading in that regard. But are there other benefits of the Denon that outweigh not having Dirac? (Buying it goes outside my budget).
• The Fosi V3 mono's perform the best using XLR input according to Amir's measurements, but I know that the AV7703 XLR outputs have a shared path with the unbalanced RCA and thus are not truly unbalanced. So I am wondering if moving to RCA's again would be noticable in my situation, and if it would outweigh the other benefits.

Size wise, the three AVR's are all very similar. So I see not much of a problem there, but they would barely fit depth wise in my furniture cabinet.

I also found the Denon 4700H refurbished/demo model with full waranty for 1200 euro, or a second hand one at 1000 (perhaps lower with some bidding), I know that the 3700H is well regarded measuring wise for the pre-amp section, but it has no option for dirac in the future at all, and its quit expensive for second hand / refurbished.

I also check out pure pre-processors like what I have now, but they are to expensive to include all the requirements that I have, unfortunately.

So, based on all of the above, what would you choose? Or am I missing any other options?

Sorry for the wall of text, but thanks in advance!

 

[EWL5]

Denon 3800 - a solid choice (full disclosure: I've owned one for 2.5+ years). Only AVR of the 3 that is capable of running Dirac ART. Current market price in the States is closer to $1300-1400 so if you can get it for less than 1000 Euros, that's a no-brainer!

Onkyo RZ30 - another solid choice. Only issue is you mentioned refurbished. Similar models from the PAC group have had some HDMI issues. There is also the presumptive possibility it may also suffer from "unintended 4 ohm mode" like the rest of the 2021 AVRs that it shares similar parts with. Big brother RZ50 only gets you to the full 11 channel processing using a min of amps for 2 channels on surrounds (not L/C/R as normally preferred). I assume the RZ30 is no better but it is newer than the RZ50 so I'm not sure.

Pioneer 505 - doesn't matter if it's brand new or used: stay away from all Pioneer AVRs! Ever since Pioneer dropped the license from the PAC group 2 summers ago, current Pioneer owners have been left in limbo. I've been in forums where owners can't get the proper relief because Onkyo is providing all the tech support and not keeping up. Did I mention the 505 is the only one of the mid-tier PAC AVRs (which includes the RZ50 and the DRX 5.4) that didn't get the firmware update that allowed for DLBM/DLBC? Why not? Makes no sense to give Dirac additional royalties on a product that is no longer part of PAC!

 

[Oddball]

Another vote for 3800H. Just to note it appears that new model 3900H is around the corner. We don't know much but it has new DAC and some new features. How important that is - will be seen.

 

[popej]

You should rule out LX505. It has a simplified bass management. Unless you are sure, your speakers would work with it, don't buy 505. That's an advice from happy user of similar LX305

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Eliminate the goofy furniture. I would never allow a piece of particle board or plywood veneer dictate such choices. TV on a stalk with adjustable shelving eliminates problem. Also, replace wall pipeline restrictions with 3 or 4 gang interface.

 

[Ruediger]

From using the Denon X3800H as a pre-amp I can say that temperature stays rather low when the amps are disabled. I don't see a problem with it in a smaller cabinet where only the back is open.

With amps on it's a different thing, as is probably with all 3 choices.

For 999 € - as long as the stock may last now with the X3900H available from the first dealers - it's a great deal IMO.

 

[AudioX3]

What about a quality pre/pro, if such a thing exists.

 

[EWL5]

What about a quality pre/pro, if such a thing exists.

There's no prepro in this $899-$1299 range. As we haven't heard from the OP, I'll just assumed they moved on...