Denon 3700H, 4700H, 6700H

[Beershaun]

at 44minutes in to the video it demonstrates exactly that case in a 13.1 setup. You can choose to assign 2 pre-amp channels to the front left/right or whichever channels of your choice.

30.2 channels!

 

[Deeluik]

What I really wish they would do is let us use our own mic with calibration file.

That’s what makes Dirac stand out to me.

I have measured a few Denon mics compared to a calibrated mic and they are pretty far off and there is even a large inconsistency between individual Denon mics.

What’s the point in calibrating your speakers to a mic that is far off from a reference response measurement?

At the very least, let me measure my Denon mic vs my calibrated mic in REW and spit out a calibration text file for the Denon mic that can be uploaded to the Denon over the web UI. How hard could that be? To apply a simple curve to the mic measurements before EQ.

I used to have the audyssey pro kit with an individually calibrated mic and preamp. I liked the measurement results and that one could remove the arbitrary crossover dip. But it was not very fast in communicating with the receiver because the measurements were actually done in the receiver and then send to the pc. Also making custom curves was hard.

Hope they will make a 2.0 version using an app or computer program and calibrated mic. Preferably any mic one already has with calibration file.

 

[raistlin65]

Well, I've been leaning toward buying the X4500H for many weeks now. So decided to pull the trigger today on the X4700H. Got it on pre-order from
AVS user jdsmoothie who runs the official 2020 Denon receiver thread at AVS. He works for AVScience.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hope they will make a 2.0 version using an app or computer program and calibrated mic. Preferably any mic one already has with calibration file.

There is a relatively new app for Audyssey XT32 and it does what the old Pro kit did but it will not accommodate any mic other than the one supplied with the AVR. Chances of a new version of the Pro kit are infinitessimal.

 

[Bear123]

I think this is a good step forward, and is something that absolutely should have been done, but is also not a "the sky is no longer falling" issue. The performance disparity between Denon 3500 and earlier versions vs the 3600, or now the 3700, if using the right equipment, is all but meaningless.

In other words, go buy a Denon X3500 for $500. Use a Monoprice Monolith 3/5/7 channel amp for $12-$1500. 95 dB SINAD for up to 7 channels for under 2k. 200/300+ watts/channel with much higher burst. Not many speakers that need any more power than that. No external DAC needed....it won't sound any different. Or just use a 3 channel for the LCR without losing all the other internal amps that are perfectly adequate for the rest of the channels.

For those who already have amps that require more than 1.5 volts to provide full power, the new model will result in a significantly lower SINAD since the older versions clip past this point.

If I were starting from scratch and wanted an AVR and external amp today, and the channel count offered was enough, I'd get an X3500 and Monolith 3 channel amp for $1600 total combined cost. Or another $100 gets you 5 channels on the Mono, which would be kind of silly not to do imo. No real benefit of spending $600 more for the new model.

I'm currently running without an external amp since, even though I probably watch movies louder than the majority of folks here on ASR, the internal Denon amps still provide more power than I need at my typical listening levels. And I'm pretty confident I wouldn't hear any difference between my current 85 dB SINAD and the 95 dB I would get with an external amp. The hobbyist in me is still interested in possibly doing this some day, I just don't think there would be any real world audible difference.

 

[rvsixer]

@ bear123 - Where are you getting your numbers from? They don't fall in line with tested numbers:
3500 = clips > 2V, SINAD <80
3600 = clips > 4V, @2V SINAD hovers around 100 depending

3600 is definitely worth the $300 premium imo (well, before covid anyway, when the 3600's were going for $799 new I should have grabbed one).

 

[Bear123]

@ bear123 - Where are you getting your numbers from? They don't fall in line with tested numbers:
3500 = clips > 2V, SINAD <80
3600 = clips > 4V, @2V SINAD hovers around 100 depending

3600 is definitely worth the $300 premium imo (well, before covid anyway, when the 3600's were going for $799 new I should have grabbed one).

Those numbers are correct. However, the 3500, when operated below reference level, which applies to essentially 100% of users, has SINAD of 95 dB from pre-outs without any kind of amp disconnect feature. The 3500 provides 1.5 volts at reference level. The monolith amps require 1.43 volts to achieve full rated power. Therefore, in the real world, vs a test bench under unrealistic conditions, the 3500 will be sonically indistinguishable from the 3600 or 3700 or any other amp or AVR with SINAD of 90, 95, 100, 110, etc.

A 95 dB signal from the 3500's pre-outs vs a 100 dB signal from the 3600, other than numbers on a graph, will make no audible difference.

 

[Dj7675]

I think this is a good step forward, and is something that absolutely should have been done, but is also not a "the sky is no longer falling" issue. The performance disparity between Denon 3500 and earlier versions vs the 3600, or now the 3700, if using the right equipment, is all but meaningless.

In other words, go buy a Denon X3500 for $500. Use a Monoprice Monolith 3/5/7 channel amp for $12-$1500. 95 dB SINAD for up to 7 channels for under 2k. 200/300+ watts/channel with much higher burst. Not many speakers that need any more power than that. No external DAC needed....it won't sound any different. Or just use a 3 channel for the LCR without losing all the other internal amps that are perfectly adequate for the rest of the channels.

For those who already have amps that require more than 1.5 volts to provide full power, the new model will result in a significantly lower SINAD since the older versions clip past this point.

If I were starting from scratch and wanted an AVR and external amp today, and the channel count offered was enough, I'd get an X3500 and Monolith 3 channel amp for $1600 total combined cost. Or another $100 gets you 5 channels on the Mono, which would be kind of silly not to do imo. No real benefit of spending $600 more for the new model.

I'm currently running without an external amp since, even though I probably watch movies louder than the majority of folks here on ASR, the internal Denon amps still provide more power than I need at my typical listening levels. And I'm pretty confident I wouldn't hear any difference between my current 85 dB SINAD and the 95 dB I would get with an external amp. The hobbyist in me is still interested in possibly doing this some day, I just don't think there would be any real world audible difference.

I got one @ $499, but that price doesn’t appear to be around any more. I didn’t see any less than $699 now.

 

[rvsixer]

...Therefore, in the real world, vs a test bench under unrealistic conditions, the 3500 will be sonically indistinguishable from the 3600 or 3700 or any other amp or AVR with SINAD of 90, 95, 100, 110, etc.

Well at least we know the previously touted 3500 numbers were incorrect. I'd like to see the real world ABX test result for the rest before buying in.

 

[Dj7675]

Well at least we know the previously touted 3500 numbers were incorrect. I'd like to see the real world ABX test result for the rest before buying in.

What do you mean the 3500 numbers were incorrect? Which numbers?

 

[rvsixer]

What do you mean the 3500 numbers were incorrect? Which numbers?

Posts are right above.

 

[Dj7675]

Posts are right above.

The numbers were not incorrect. The measurements at 2V are correct. If you attempt to hook up an amp that requires 2V, those are the results you get (which are pretty bad). However as discussed in the 3500 thread if you keep it below 1.5V performance is not far off than the x3600. As @Bear123 pointed out, you can get quite good results pairing it with an amp that requires less than 1.5V. Amir now seems to be including not only the 2V/4V measurements but also goes a step further to find where it performs best. Without such tests we wouldn’t know such information which in my opinion is some of the most useful information. Unless I am misunderstanding you, the measurements are not incorrect.

 

[rvsixer]

For less than $300 upcharge - I'm still sticking with newer models that don't clip until 4V (not the stated 1.5V), have a higher SINAD at normal 2V, and better the older model in other tests. Now if that price differential opens up substantially, yes cherry picking components that work with the upfront shortcomings is certainly valid.

I am all in on Amir's upwardly evolving testing. So thankful to have it. Now back to x700 ....

 

[Head_Unit]

What I really wish they would do is let us use our own mic with calibration file.

My understanding is (I *think* like REW etc) Denon use a cheap microphone, with a calibration curve compared to a reference mic, and the calibration is burned into the AVR...which is why if you lose your mic you're screwed I guess. Is my understanding incorrect?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

My understanding is (I *think* like REW etc) Denon use a cheap microphone, with a calibration curve compared to a reference mic, and the calibration is burned into the AVR...which is why if you lose your mic you're screwed I guess. Is my understanding incorrect?

1. REW does not "use" any particular microphone. It can use any microphone and, it is recommended and logical, to use the correction for it.
2. Denon uses a relatively cheap (I've seen worse) microphone with a generic correction for that microphone.

 

[GXAlan]

Pj

1. REW does not "use" any particular microphone. It can use any microphone and, it is recommended and logical, to use the correction for it.
2. Denon uses a relatively cheap (I've seen worse) microphone with a generic correction for that microphone.

To add to this, it is my understanding that Audyssey KNOWS that their generic microphone has unit-variability, so it's not as aggressive as correcting the higher frequencies, even if you're using the default "correct all frequencies" mode.

Dirac is not plug-and-play, nor is ARC Genesis. One of the new "discoveries" for Audyssey is that you can combined the app with 3rd party freeware (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...-tool-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.html ) to enable a lot of extra capabilities that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

There are a lot of ways to manipulate it, but one strategy
1) Capture using the MultEQ app
2) Apply your own target curve inside MultEQ.
3) Capture finished results using REW
4) Use Ratbuddyssey to use the calibrated FR data from REW to manipulate the target curve with extra-fine corrections to your liking
5) Upload the user-modified corrections to the receiver
6) Capture new results using REW.

What is still missing is that I don't think the community has figured out how many nodes you can have in the custom curve.

 

[John Galt]

I see that the X700 models only have one 8k HDMI input. Based on Denon’s model history does anyone have a guesstimate as to when all inputs will go to 8k? Do you think it will be the next model year? Is this what happened with 4k?

 

[EB1000]

Denon/Marantz AVRs are useless! I had to return my X6400H because I was unable to run Audyssey in my large living room due to speaker to speaker max distance limitation of only 6 meters (20 feet)! I've contacted Denon support and they told me to change the location of my speakers. Contacted Audessey support and they blamed Denon for not allowing larger delay compensation. If you have a 20ft by 20ft room, and you are sitting close to the surround speakers, you'll get a distance rang error during calibration. I never had such a problem with Yamaha or Onkyo receivers. I was hoping the newer 2020 models will not have this limitation, bit according to the manual, they still do... I'm done with Denon...

 

[Deeluik]

I see that the X700 models only have one 8k HDMI input. Based on Denon’s model history does anyone have a guesstimate as to when all inputs will go to 8k? Do you think it will be the next model year? Is this what happened with 4k?

For example with the x7200w it started with 4k pass through on all ports so no OSD overlay in 4k signals later I had a hdcp 2.2 board installed with full 4k capabilities which denon labeled as the x7200wa. Don’t know if they had just one 4k port on models before this. I think they plan something similar for the x8500h. From audioholics: Denon plans to support the owners of the AVR-X8500H with both hardware and software upgradability to the HDMI 2.1 specification, namely 8K pass-through capability when the solution becomes available. It will be a charged upgrade service though the price has yet to be announced.

 

[rvsixer]

Denon/Marantz AVRs are useless! I had to return my X6400H because I was unable to run Audyssey in my large living room due to speaker to speaker max distance limitation of only 6 meters (20 feet)! I've contacted Denon support and they told me to change the location of my speakers. Contacted Audessey support and they blamed Denon for not allowing larger delay compensation. If you have a 20ft by 20ft room, and you are sitting close to the surround speakers, you'll get a distance rang error during calibration. I never had such a problem with Yamaha or Onkyo receivers. I was hoping the newer 2020 models will not have this limitation, bit according to the manual, they still do... I'm done with Denon...

Sure enough, from the way I read the manual:
You can set delays for each speaker up to 60 ft away from the LP...but the speakers must be within a 20 ft diameter sphere for "room correction" to work. WTH.

I thinks the guys and gals who got the amp disconnect pushed through, should head on over to the speaker configuration support department .