Denon 2023 range X3900H/X4900H/X6800H announcement....!!??

[EWL5]

The pic you posted had the power of the RZ-61 covered. I found this pic with the power listed.

So the lineup could look like

NR-7200 100W 9/9
RZ-31 100W 9/11
RZ-51 120W 9/13
RZ-61 135W 11/13
RZ-71 140W 11/15

This would also match the 4 channel power amp Onkyo showed which I assume could become 2 channel bridged

Hi, please refrain from posting your "channels processing" side until numbers are confirmed. AI will take your post and just spread this misinformation all over the web (unless that was your intent all along).

 

[Mort]

Is there any actual announcement or just ongoing speculation? Asking selfishly - I can't read back far enough in the thread to tell.

 

[caspian85]

Hi, please refrain from posting your "channels processing" side until numbers are confirmed. AI will take your post and just spread this misinformation all over the web (unless that was your intent all along).

Not at all . We all openly discuss theories and ideas. what AI does with it, and worse what people who think what AI spits out is gospel truth, isn’t up to us !

 

[EWL5]

Is there any actual announcement or just ongoing speculation? Asking selfishly - I can't read back far enough in the thread to tell.

You mean what Onkyo shared at CES this past January? We know nothing other than the models that are coming out in 2027 (watts/channel were listed but not processing). Machines at CES were mock-ups. It's assumed they're still a ways from production/ART-compatibility and that's why they said 2027.

 

[Mort]

You mean what Onkyo shared at CES this past January? We know nothing other than the models that are coming out in 2027 (watts/channel were listed but not processing). Machines at CES were mock-ups. It's assumed they're still a ways from production/ART-compatibility and that's why they said 2027.

That's helpful, thank you.

 

[EWL5]

That's helpful, thank you.

There was an entire thread devoted to the CES announcement here:

Onkyo ready to unveil Dirac ART-capable products at CES

Very preliminary news has Onkyo ready to enter the Dirac ART fold w/intro of new products during CES. Products won't be available until 2027! https://onkyo.com/press/the-onkyo-horizon-first-look-at-ces-2026-2 Too little too late?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Miker 1102]

That would be fantastic, the 4308s is much better, comparable to the ES9017S used in the 6800, C30 and AV30, and SINAD spec is 17 dB better than the PCM5102A.

This seems like it makes more sense for this line of Denon.

 

[amper42]

Why would anyone want the 3900? Cirrus Logic CS4308S architecture - no thanks.

It doesn't offer the Monolithic design found in 4800 or the dual high-performance Analog Devices SHARC DSP chips, that provide Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with significantly more computational processing math power. Seems like a down grade to me. Has Denon lost its way?

 

[EWL5]

Why would anyone want the 3900? Cirrus Logic CS4308S architecture - no thanks.

It doesn't offer the Monolithic design found in 4800 or the dual high-performance Analog Devices SHARC DSP chips, that provide Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with significantly more computational processing math power. Seems like a down grade to me. Has Denon lost its way?

You’re confusing DAC (Cirrus Logic) with DSP chip (SHARC). I already confirmed the 3900 has the same SHARC chip as the 3800 so no computational change!

 

[Ruediger]

My curiosity still stands: how well does Dirac (any flavor) do over wireless speakers? I would imagine ART could be a nightmare trying to tame GD. You'd get good performance on days when wireless doesn't get interference?

When there is nothing wrong with distance/reception in general, there is no need to worry about interference. The "free" frequencies they operate with are not exclusive to them. And they have a variety of channels and transmitter settings to (automatically) optimize with. Even in a pretty crowded environment there should be no problem achieving way more bandwidth than these audio links would ever require.

My concern about room correction and wireless would be delay only. But the engineers at Denon and Dirac don't need us to point that out.

 

[ban25]

Yes, I did put the 9-11 channel qualifier there.

My curiosity still stands: how well does Dirac (any flavor) do over wireless speakers? I would imagine ART could be a nightmare trying to tame GD. You'd get good performance on days when wireless doesn't get interference?

Dirac on D+M hardware has a maximum channel delay of 50 ms. Beyond that, it will set the slowest channel to 0 ms delay and the rest to 50, even if they really need to be 60, 80, or whatever. If you see a 50 ms delay in a channel post calibration, you can assume that your speakers are not properly time-aligned.

The default limit from Dirac is actually 20 ms, but D+M increased it to 50 ms in the U30.1 update released in 2023. These high latencies are really only a problem with wireless speakers because the transceiver has to buffer some amount of audio before encoding it, transmitting, and decoding on the other side. I imagine it would be difficult to get a truly good ART calibration with wireless speakers, especially in a larger room.

 

[Oddball]

Dirac on D+M hardware has a maximum channel delay of 50 ms. Beyond that, it will set the slowest channel to 0 ms delay and the rest to 50, even if they really need to be 60, 80, or whatever. If you see a 50 ms delay in a channel post calibration, you can assume that your speakers are not properly time-aligned.

The default limit from Dirac is actually 20 ms, but D+M increased it to 50 ms in the U30.1 update released in 2023. These high latencies are really only a problem with wireless speakers because the transceiver has to buffer some amount of audio before encoding it, transmitting, and decoding on the other side. I imagine it would be difficult to get a truly good ART calibration with wireless speakers, especially in a larger room.

Agreed. For ones planning to use Audy, any kind of wireless speakers are out of question. Audy has 6m distance limitation what is barely enough to accomodate wired speakers in medium rooms. So Dirac would be the only solution in that use case.

 

[peng]

I hope Amir will get to measure both the AVR-X3900H and AVR-X4900H. I am one who believes in chasing SINAD but not so much in terms of audible sound quality even going from the PCM5102A to the CL 4308S. It would be great to measure both mainly because, the CL4308S. As many might remember bigguyca seemed to believe (and me too) that all else being equal, current output DACs are better, and the CL 4308S DAC is current output so since the 4000 series likely continue to use better opamps in some parts of the circuitry, they likely will do so in the I/V conversion part. If so, the SINAD gap between the X3900H and X4900H would likely widen, versus the X3700/3800/4700/4800H.

But again, that only mean something for us SINAD chasers, for value/practical focused, it may still be difficult to justify the potentially $800 to $1,000 premium, though if Amir in fact measure the two and we can see something like 96 dB vs 105 dB SINAD, even non SINAD chasers might be tempted Lol.

 

[Oddball]

Oh, did not realize you are a SINAD chaser? Something new or just my bad memory?

I can say with confidence that IMO SINAD chasing is a mute point. I did not SINAD chase AV 10, just feature chase it. Some of my amps are SINAD bottleneck but then again ended up being recommended even on this site. I could hear absolutely no difference from more powerful and SINAD superior amps like Sorm 16. So that did it for me. Conclusion from the review that I can just aploud.

Conclusions
As one of my favorite (looking) brands, I was very anxious to measure a Rotel amp, hoping it would not let me down. Fortunately it did not. No, the SINAD doesn't break new ground but the rest of the measurements are very good with plenty of power available. It is a great choice for people wanting good amount of power in an attractive package with competent performance.

I am going to recommend (used) Rotel RB-1070.

Rotel RB-1070 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Rotel RB-1070 stereo power amplifier. It was released in early 2000. Can't find the cost then but I see it used for around $400 to $500. I have always found Rotels to be most attractively designed power amplifiers. One look at that front panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bleib]

I don't care that much for the SINAD race, but I do think AVR makes most things quite a bit more fun, so why not have something that is even cleaner than before? I say this although I'm not sure it's worth to get the new ones for the new higher prices, I paid a mere 500 euro for 2800h

 

[ban25]

Agreed. For ones planning to use Audy, any kind of wireless speakers are out of question. Audy has 6m distance limitation what is barely enough to accomodate wired speakers in medium rooms. So Dirac would be the only solution in that use case.

Yeah my front subwoofer is a full 14 ms delayed from the MLP, and that's wired. If it was wireless, it'd probably be 30 ms+.

 

[SynthesisCinema]

You mean what Onkyo shared at CES this past January? We know nothing other than the models that are coming out in 2027 (watts/channel were listed but not processing). Machines at CES were mock-ups. It's assumed they're still a ways from production/ART-compatibility and that's why they said 2027.

The eCoustics youtube clip "Onkyo surprises at CES 2026 with with New Line of A/V Receivers..." mentions that RZ31 will have 11ch processing at +2min mark and it makes fully sense as X3900H has that one too. Add ART support with ESS DAC and you have very competitive product possibly again at lower price point. But the objective performance may not be as good versus Denon as how things are implemented matters. We have also seen in past with Onkyo NR6100 and RZ50 some odd behaviour with the "limp mode" etc. How much these translates for real world usage is another matter..

 

[SynthesisCinema]

So again no Class D? :/

Hopefully the next generation of Denon`s would have them after they run out of numbers = good reason to do bigger change with fresh look and internal changes! Marantz has already moved to Class D with their new power amps so it must be only question of time when they find cost effective and reliable solution for AVR`s. Those modules are manufactured as stereo pairs and the Ice Edge modules are not cheap so this could be holding them back, i don´t know. From AV30 review;


When I asked Ogata-san, the Marantz soundmaster, why Marantz has been moving away from Class A/B amplifiers to Class D, he said it is a combination of efficiency, thermal management and weight, which are particularly important on multi-channel amplifiers. And Ogata-san says with developments in Class D amplifiers, combined with Marantz HDAM, they are able to make smaller, lighter, more efficient, cooler running amplifiers without any sacrifice in that Marantz signature immersive, accurate sound quality.

Also, when asked why Marantz’ multi-channel power amplifiers are offered with even numbers of channels (6-channel, 12-channel, 16-channel), while most home theater systems are designed with odd channel numbers (7-channel, 11-channel, 15-channel), a Marantz rep explained that each amplifier module is manufactured as a stereo pair, with each stereo pair bridgeable to double the output. So the AMP 20 includes six individual stereo amplifier modules, while the AMP 30 has three stereo modules.

 

[Bleib]

Isn't it largely because they would have to buy the class D amps from some other company and that would take a cut from their profits?

 

[Oddball]

Hopefully the next generation of Denon`s would have them after they run out of numbers = good reason to do bigger change with fresh look and internal changes! Marantz has already moved to Class D with their new power amps so it must be only question of time when they find cost effective and reliable solution for AVR`s. Those modules are manufactured as stereo pairs and the Ice Edge modules are not cheap so this could be holding them back, i don´t know. From AV30 review;


When I asked Ogata-san, the Marantz soundmaster, why Marantz has been moving away from Class A/B amplifiers to Class D, he said it is a combination of efficiency, thermal management and weight, which are particularly important on multi-channel amplifiers. And Ogata-san says with developments in Class D amplifiers, combined with Marantz HDAM, they are able to make smaller, lighter, more efficient, cooler running amplifiers without any sacrifice in that Marantz signature immersive, accurate sound quality.

Also, when asked why Marantz’ multi-channel power amplifiers are offered with even numbers of channels (6-channel, 12-channel, 16-channel), while most home theater systems are designed with odd channel numbers (7-channel, 11-channel, 15-channel), a Marantz rep explained that each amplifier module is manufactured as a stereo pair, with each stereo pair bridgeable to double the output. So the AMP 20 includes six individual stereo amplifier modules, while the AMP 30 has three stereo modules.

Can you pls link to the entire review? Seems like Ogata-san is connecting HDAMs to D-class in a way that we would not expect.

Just for some context, my favourite D&M marketing clip. Real fun and Garry just knocked it our of the ball-park couple of times. Best parts are 3.30 to 6:00. Definition of warmth, plus some golden ears stuff.

There is of course an obvious reason to move to D class with 16 ch amp. And has nothing to do with HDAMs or synergy, just thermal management and overall performance.