Denafrips

[renaudrenaud]

Thanks for all your opinions! The reason I joined this group is to get straight answers no fluff. My main speakers are the Monitor Audio gold 100 5g, I also have Maggie 1.7i.

I invite you to spend few time reading here and there this forum. After few weeks you will gain a clearer understanding of the market and you will be able to decipher the fallacious arguments and all the non sense.

The funniest thing for me is when a unit is clearly a wrong design with awful test results and in the same time some reviewers find the unit is brilliant and allows to discover bla bla bla.

If I am generous I can understand this kind of reviewers are artists and poets trying to play with words to explain some emotions listening music. They need some ritual for their mystical process and they believe in cables, and all the marketing bullshit they do not understand but they are the first to repeat.

 

[VintageFlanker]

If I am generous I can understand this kind of reviewers are artists and poets trying to play with words to explain some emotions listening music. They need some ritual for their mystical process and they believe in cables, and all the marketing bullshit they do not understand but they are the first to repeat.

I guess this should be their first ritual:

Not to mention: "I thought the unit costs at least twice the price...it performs way above its price and weight!!...blablabla"

Thanks for all your opinions! The reason I joined this group is to get straight answers no fluff.

That's the place to go, then.

 

[Kw6]

I invite you to spend few time reading here and there this forum. After few weeks you will gain a clearer understanding of the market and you will be able to decipher the fallacious arguments and all the non sense.

The funniest thing for me is when a unit is clearly a wrong design with awful test results and in the same time some reviewers find the unit is brilliant and allows to discover bla bla bla.

If I am generous I can understand this kind of reviewers are artists and poets trying to play with words to explain some emotions listening music. They need some ritual for their mystical process and they believe in cables, and all the marketing bullshit they do not understand but they are the first to repeat.

Thanks I will!

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I can't wait till you guys put the Terminator through its paces!

why? its pretty obvious what performance will be. it certainly wont measure much better then any other r2r dac. i can predict exactly what will happen if amir got one in for review:

sinad of under 80 which will get lambasted due to the dac sitting in the mid 4 figure range. every member of the forum chopping in throw the manufacture on blast. the manufacture might notice all the attention its getting and in this instance do nothing to better their products in response. personally i don't think a company like denafrips is able to rework their electronics to measure better. oh and it'll get a headless panther.

superbestaudiofriends already has measurements for the denafrips terminator published on their website by atomicbob. he shows it measures about the same as the yggdrasil v2. i don't know what it would translate into sinad but it would be around whatever the yggdrasil was, about 80 or so.

 

[The Beave]

You guys are so funny, you don’t get the Denafrips/ r-2r thing AT ALL....LOL!
This is what it is because I just spent time 2 months ago with the Denafrips Ares 2, ........
The people attracted to the r-2r thing are looking for a different experience than the traditional Sigma Delta dac. Their not really concerned with testing specs, they feel that the ladder technology brings a more analog listening experience to the table. Nothing deeper then that! It is really that simple. They have found dissatisfaction with Sigma Delta dac’s for whatever reason and their trying out these new dac’s.
And the growing popularity of them is telling. But this is exactly how our hobby goes, there has always been different layers of culture doing their thing and that’s what we’re seeing here.

Now I found the Ares 2 a very good sounding dac, but after spending some time with it decided that it didn’t raise the bar for me. But I am a different kind of animal when it comes to gear.
The digital world is still evolving and I’m having fun checking things out, but does that mean that the people who like ladder dac’s are stupid? Hell no, this hobby is about finding what you like and is pleasing to you!
If it doesn’t measure up there who cares?
I love measurements, but ultimately it comes down to me thinking something sounds good. That’s all that matters.
Beave

 

[FrantzM]

You guys are so funny, you don’t get the Denafrips/ r-2r thing AT ALL....LOL!
This is what it is because I just spent time 2 months ago with the Denafrips Ares 2, ........
The people attracted to the r-2r thing are looking for a different experience than the traditional Sigma Delta dac. Their not really concerned with testing specs, they feel that the ladder technology brings a more analog listening experience to the table. Nothing deeper then that! It is really that simple. They have found dissatisfaction with Sigma Delta dac’s for whatever reason and their trying out these new dac’s.
And the growing popularity of them is telling. But this is exactly how our hobby goes, there has always been different layers of culture doing their thing and that’s what we’re seeing here.

Now I found the Ares 2 a very good sounding dac, but after spending some time with it decided that it didn’t raise the bar for me. But I am a different kind of animal when it comes to gear.
The digital world is still evolving and I’m having fun checking things out, but does that mean that the people who like ladder dac’s are stupid? Hell no, this hobby is about finding what you like and is pleasing to you!
If it doesn’t measure up there who cares?
I love measurements, but ultimately it comes down to me thinking something sounds good. That’s all that matters.
Beave

Hi
I do understand your position. You seem to ascribe a sound signature to R2R DACs. Am I correct in my assumption? If such is the case do you believe you would be able, under blind condition, i-e knowledge of the DUT removed, to recognize such signature?
If you subject yourself to such experience. Please report to us.

 

[maxxevv]

Preferences and technical excellence are not directly nor indirectly related. Let's get that straight.

Sighted and blind listening under level-matched SP conditions will yield different results too. Let's get that out of the way too.

And as @FrantzM highlighted, it would be interesting if you can positively, undoubtedly identify a R2R from a DS system of almost identical THD+N / SINAD performance under level-matched, blind testing conditions. Under the condition that neither systems are near clipping levels of output.

Note that there are R2R step ladder DAC's that actually can match (measurements wise) some of the very best DS implementations. So its not a given that R2R step ladders will perform badly. The Holo Audio May is such an example.

 

[pozz]

You guys are so funny, you don’t get the Denafrips/ r-2r thing AT ALL....LOL!
This is what it is because I just spent time 2 months ago with the Denafrips Ares 2, ........
The people attracted to the r-2r thing are looking for a different experience than the traditional Sigma Delta dac. Their not really concerned with testing specs, they feel that the ladder technology brings a more analog listening experience to the table. Nothing deeper then that! It is really that simple. They have found dissatisfaction with Sigma Delta dac’s for whatever reason and their trying out these new dac’s.

Just to be clear, the general drift on ASR would be against this kind of device because different DAC architectures sound the same (they take different roads to arrive at the same place) and because this Denafrips will likely end up being too expensive for what it offers. The reason for this general drift of opinion is that ASR has been shown conclusively that manufacturers exploit the basic inaudibility of flaws or points of excellence to allow reviewers and customers to say whatever they like about the sound.

There are many documents and research materials available and which are debated consistently enough here for proof, if you're interested in reading them.

There are also many caveats to "basic inaudibility", as you can imagine, but they are related to scientific listening training which allows small distortions to be recognized as readily as conservatory-trained musicians can recognize drifts in tempo or pitch. I think this part is often underappreciated in debates had here and elsewhere about audible effects or lack thereof (again, to be clear, musicians are no better than any other untrained listeners in picking up distortions since these phenomena are outside of their sphere of expertise).

And merry christmas to everyone.

 

[VintageFlanker]

You guys are so funny, you don’t get the Denafrips/ r-2r thing AT ALL....LOL!

Thanks for your enlightenment.

 

[pozz]

why? its pretty obvious what performance will be. it certainly wont measure much better then any other r2r dac. i can predict exactly what will happen if amir got one in for review:

sinad of under 80 which will get lambasted due to the dac sitting in the mid 4 figure range. every member of the forum chopping in throw the manufacture on blast. the manufacture might notice all the attention its getting and in this instance do nothing to better their products in response. personally i don't think a company like denafrips is able to rework their electronics to measure better. oh and it'll get a headless panther.

superbestaudiofriends already has measurements for the denafrips terminator published on their website by atomicbob. he shows it measures about the same as the yggdrasil v2. i don't know what it would translate into sinad but it would be around whatever the yggdrasil was, about 80 or so.

That's a bit cynical no? Just in terms of questioning the actual work and the results---those are important to have so that people can actually have a basis for comparison. Maybe a few will start to question why the engineer's tests show nothing to be proud of on the technical side. In terms of restraint, well, it's hard not to be angry, even with 200+ DACs tested and decent perspective on what the industry's like.

 

[audiophile]

To the digital experts here!. What do you guys think of the Denafrips Ares

I’m not an expert, but I own Ares 2 and like it very much. Didn’t measure it, didn’t test blind though.

 

[The Beave]

Hi
I do understand your position. You seem to ascribe a sound signature to R2R DACs. Am I correct in my assumption? If such is the case do you believe you would be able, under blind condition, i-e knowledge of the DUT removed, to recognize such signature?
If you subject yourself to such experience. Please report to us.

No position really, I like what sounds good. The Ares 2, I really wouldn’t describe it as a signature, others would but when I ended up doing an a/b after level matching with my Audiolab 8300 with the ESS 9018 in it, I really didn’t hear that much of a difference so I sold the Ares 2.
I really don’t have a position on dac’s. Whatever floats yer boat is the one for you.
I do however love trying different ones out and sharing the experience.
cant wait for the Soncoz!
Beave

 

[The Beave]

Preferences and technical excellence are not directly nor indirectly related. Let's get that straight.

Sighted and blind listening under level-matched SP conditions will yield different results too. Let's get that out of the way too.

And as @FrantzM highlighted, it would be interesting if you can positively, undoubtedly identify a R2R from a DS system of almost identical THD+N / SINAD performance under level-matched, blind testing conditions. Under the condition that neither systems are near clipping levels of output.

Note that there are R2R step ladder DAC's that actually can match (measurements wise) some of the very best DS implementations. So its not a given that R2R step ladders will perform badly. The Holo Audio May is such an example.

Excellent post and points are spot on!
Continue on.......
Beave

 

[The Beave]

Just to be clear, the general drift on ASR would be against this kind of device because different DAC architectures sound the same (they take different roads to arrive at the same place) and because this Denafrips will likely end up being too expensive for what it offers. The reason for this general drift of opinion is that ASR has been shown conclusively that manufacturers exploit the basic inaudibility of flaws or points of excellence to allow reviewers and customers to say whatever they like about the sound.

There are many documents and research materials available and which are debated consistently enough here for proof, if you're interested in reading them.

There are also many caveats to "basic inaudibility", as you can imagine, but they are related to scientific listening training which allows small distortions to be recognized as readily as conservatory-trained musicians can recognize drifts in tempo or pitch. I think this part is often underappreciated in debates had here and elsewhere about audible effects or lack thereof (again, to be clear, musicians are no better than any other untrained listeners in picking up distortions since these phenomena are outside of their sphere of expertise).

And merry christmas to everyone.

Excellent points!
I’m enjoying my time here, lot of good information!
And Merry Christmas to all also!
Beave

 

[Kw6]

No position really, I like what sounds good. The Ares 2, I really wouldn’t describe it as a signature, others would but when I ended up doing an a/b after level matching with my Audiolab 8300 with the ESS 9018 in it, I really didn’t hear that much of a difference so I sold the Ares 2.
I really don’t have a position on dac’s. Whatever floats yer boat is the one for you.
I do however love trying different ones out and sharing the experience.
cant wait for the Soncoz!
Beave

Thanks for your feedback! Seems like under level matched condition sound is the same! I was looking for a new dac as my Cambridge might have an intermittent right channel. Testing it out today. If I get new dac probably get a Topping.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I was looking for a new dac as my Cambridge might have an intermittent right channel. Testing it out today.

Oh my... Reminds me something...

Good "value to performance" for sure. Not so sure about their durability. I owned their flagship units at the time. The 851A amp and 851C DAC/CD Player. Bought in 2015 (1600€ each) and issues started few month later. The 851A got VERY warm and sometimes suddenly turned off due to the heat... I wasn't able to listen to it at high volumes for more than an hour. Then the 851C showed serious problems. I started to notice a very audible noise in right chanel (both XLR and RCA) and it gone worse weeks after weeks. I wanted to use some warranty but neither Cambridge or PPL Audio (Cambridge retailer in France) accepted to fix this for free. And asked me 300€ to repair the output stage... I ended by sold both units at a broken price to a guy who was saying he could fix the issue himself.
If this is the kind a quality control (and support) they provide for their flagship units... Then I'm not going to buy anything from them anytime soon...

 

[pozz]

Oh my... Reminds me something...

So the Cambridge DACs have QC issues? That's disappointing.

 

[The Beave]

Thanks for your feedback! Seems like under level matched condition sound is the same! I was looking for a new dac as my Cambridge might have an intermittent right channel. Testing it out today. If I get new dac probably get a Topping.

Your right! There was no audio characteristic that stood out from either one.
of course if one wants to be really scientific about it in a much more controlled way, but that’s not my aim, for me it’s a matter of seeing if one Sounds Better to my ears than the other, simple as that. And with that in mind they pretty much sounded similar.
The Topping gear is very popular and is well liked! Hope whatever you end up with you like!
Beave

 

[Xulonn]

I love measurements, but ultimately it comes down to me thinking something sounds good. That’s all that matters.

Those "thoughts" can be very expensive!

 

[th0m]

Oh my... Reminds me something...

Ha! I also had a 851A, almost 10 years ago now probably, that one day caught fire. Suddenly there was just a sharp noise from the speakers and crackling coming from the amp. When I stood up to take a look, there were sparks and black smoke coming from inside it. Scared the shit out of me. Thankfully the speakers were okay and I got a new 851A on warranty, but I was never comfortable with it again so I sold it shortly after.