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Denafrips Ares II - is it really worth it?
- Thread starter dogonelder
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DSJR
Major Contributor
I disagree. THE MUSIC RULES ALWAYS - it's just that I for one can't make purely subjective decisions so well now and also after decades in the thick of it, now see through the bullsh*t that is such a large part of this industry. Music for me has always sounded best played though properly designed (with care) playback gear and 'samey and coloured' when using less competent designs.
Good products can't be properly designed without the science whatever the tech-ignorant makers try to tell you and these days, 'good enough' really isn't good enough! Even speakers, so much an art-form and needing hours of subjective fine tuning, need a properly sound science base for them to even begin to work properly. Hair shirt small-scale audiophoolery is one thing, but if you're going to try to make for a good international business model, you need to know what you're doing, even if B&W and PMC's domestic efforts turn out the odd way they do (they still do it deliberately and not purely by accident!).
I've found it fascinating that so many audiophools regard properly performing gear to sound bland and boring. Maybe they should go and hear live unamplified music a bit more - helped me no end it did.
The absurdity here is your complete misconception of what ASR is, or ASR members are.
- "First, they're listening to music at a computer through near field speakers or headphones.":
Plain wrong to begin with. How the hell would you know such things after two days of membership, anyway ?
- "Second, they care more about measurements than music itself.":
Well, that's probably a good thing, since this is a forum to talk about music reproduction gears, not "music itself" in the first place. Otherwise, you tell me how to evaluate music's performance, music's engineering, music's value for money and so on...
That is, again, a classic subjectivist confusion between music production (Art, subjective), and music reproduction (Technical, objective). Preference and performance are two different things.
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Sokel
Master Contributor
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No computers, no near-field speakers, no headphones, and, most importantly, no time wasted listening to the equipment trying to perceive fantasy differences. Oh and no Toyota Camry (although it's a good car).
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Those who don't understand basic measurements and maybe more importantly the role bias plays in our perceptions may find themselves chasing good stories rather than experiencing truly good sound without FOMO.
Nothing to do with worship. Everything to do with understanding.
DSJR
Major Contributor
No and NO!!!
I worship nothing in audio, at least not now. Good well designed gear NEEDS to perform properly, so it can disappear from the playback and just let the recording 'speak.' Different recordings properly reproduced show how th emusicians were doing and the decisions made in the presentation of a song, or piece. The whole thing then comes together as a 'whole' and a seriously good system allows you to dip in and out of the mix without effort - hell, even in the Linn-Naim dark days of the 1980's UK audio scene, their best set-up systems allowed this with ease compared to others.. Effortless with the better active ATC's I had and the ATC's have been surpassed now I gather...
Interesting way to miss the whole point ? by knowledge that for example DAC's performing as good as most modern DAC's do or that cables dont affect the sound , this can be safely ignored and one can focus on things that matter for a greater musical experience and don't spend any more time continuously ( and needlessly ) "uppgrade" DAC's etc.
This makes the hobby cost less and there are less issues and headaches to fuss over.
You can spend time getting some more good music instead of obsseing over a power cable
what a relief .
It is however fun to fuss about , I'm researching for a future speaker uppgrade instead
This makes the hobby cost less and there are less issues and headaches to fuss over.
You can spend time getting some more good music instead of obsseing over a power cable
what a relief .It is however fun to fuss about , I'm researching for a future speaker uppgrade instead
Ken1951
Addicted to Fun and Learning
As others have said, this is so much crapahoola from someone with hurt feelings. Well, no headphones, no nearfield in this house. Just two wonderful systems and loads of music. Oh, and by the way, a 25th Anniversary MX-5 in the garage as well.
Nobody 'Worships at the altar of measurements.' That's just something you made up.
Knowing something measures well means we can relax, we have the best possible, we can just enjoy the music instead of endlessly comparing DACs, playing the same music over and over, trying to perceive which one has the widest soundstage when the differences are actually all in our heads. How utterly pointless.
Take it from me, you continue down that road and it will eventually ruin the hobby of listening music for you, as it will be replaced by the hobby of listening to equipment.
Humbug—I doubt that I will ruin my hobby of listening music as I’m 88 years old but my point is that many contributors to this forum are absolutely certain that measurements are the be and all to sound. It’s simply not true. “Knowing something measures well we relax, we have the best possible” isn’t it still subjective to your own personal tastes?
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pinpoint_oxford
Active Member
I think there are a lot of folks out there who prefer to fiddle with their systems all the time and endlessly compare gear with little or nothing to gain; listening to music is secondary. Of course, most of them would probably never admit that.
Possibly true for sex. Music - not so much.
@noise17
I enjoyed your take as I have an interest in cars too and judge equipment by listening with measurements as an added bonus, but not the final decision in any regard. Measurements is why Hyundai buyers exist over Honda buyers lol. I wouldn't assume the forum is mostly near field listeners. I think that may come from the reviews that are mostly light weight items and easily shipped for reviews by forum members.
BTW, a Camry is a better car than the Miata based on if one prefers a smooth highway car, trunk space, room for four people. The Miata is definitely more fun to drive and a great weekend car and I would love to have one. So basically it is one preferences. I think on this forum there are a myriad of people here with measurement vs listening and a mixture. I think the discussions go overboard when one person who prefers measurements (or visa versa) does not accept the other's point of view as legitimate. But the forum is mostly measurement oriented and others like myself use other audio enthusiast forums(AK for example) that are more inclusive.
I enjoyed your take as I have an interest in cars too and judge equipment by listening with measurements as an added bonus, but not the final decision in any regard. Measurements is why Hyundai buyers exist over Honda buyers lol. I wouldn't assume the forum is mostly near field listeners. I think that may come from the reviews that are mostly light weight items and easily shipped for reviews by forum members.
BTW, a Camry is a better car than the Miata based on if one prefers a smooth highway car, trunk space, room for four people. The Miata is definitely more fun to drive and a great weekend car and I would love to have one. So basically it is one preferences. I think on this forum there are a myriad of people here with measurement vs listening and a mixture. I think the discussions go overboard when one person who prefers measurements (or visa versa) does not accept the other's point of view as legitimate. But the forum is mostly measurement oriented and others like myself use other audio enthusiast forums(AK for example) that are more inclusive.
To hold that the designers of the Miata or Camry proceeded with their manufacture without detailed measurements is, generously, absurd. There was a specific design intent and market for each vehicle.
The same goes for audio equipment; it should be measured to determine if it meets its design spec, as well as “driven” to ensure the product impacts its users as intended.
I find that broad generalizations of people and approaches without honest engagement and inquiry tends to lead to shallow understanding. @noise17 should consider another tact other than bomb-throwing if their intent is to do more than agitate.
The same goes for audio equipment; it should be measured to determine if it meets its design spec, as well as “driven” to ensure the product impacts its users as intended.
I find that broad generalizations of people and approaches without honest engagement and inquiry tends to lead to shallow understanding. @noise17 should consider another tact other than bomb-throwing if their intent is to do more than agitate.
For electronics, no. For loudspeakers, to an extent, yes that is subjective.
Okay I will concede that maybe there are electronics that are so far from perfect that they do have a sound of their own and that maybe some prefer that. This particular DAC under discussion here doesn't fall into that category. There are unknown but very real qualities that won't show up in measurement? No. There's no evidence for that at all.
