It doesn’t need to be at all difficult or costly, unless you’re motivated to avoid testing your beliefs.
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Denafrips Ares II - is it really worth it?
- Thread starter dogonelder
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billyjoebob
Senior Member
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- Oct 9, 2021
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Nope, not afraid to test my beliefs.
In fact my beliefs are more in line with this forum than any other.
I don't think "for this thread" that dacs sound all that different.
My problem is that even when someone posts that they did a blind test, and find a difference, their testing methods are questioned.
And I dont like the idea that EVERY reviewer or enthusiasts that says they hear a difference is a liar.
And I hate it when people who have no idea about a product jump onto a thread to give an opinion on something they obviously know nothing about.
(Not talking about you, just venting)
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Who says they are? Being biased is not the same as being dishonest. Far from it.
Again, it's about probability and nothing else. It has never been personal.
Some of them are lying (reviewers and manufacturer more than enthusiasts). Some of them are just deluded (enthusiasts more than reviewers and manufacturers). And in a very few edge cases, very few, there's an actual difference because one unit is really poorly designed or broken or (when it happened to me) a filter setting was wrong, throwing off the frequency response. And a controlled test or rudimentary measurement will uncover that.
But 100% of the time, when the response is flat and the distortion is relatively low, a box of electronics will not sound any different than any other box of electronics with flat response and relatively low distortion. You don't need to "experience" or "audition" it. 100% of the time.
I have never made the claim that two boxes of electronics with flat response and low distortion sounded any different. The people who have made these claims over the years, and on whom the burden of proof rests, have never, ever, ever demonstrated that they could hear these differences without peeking.
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I'm asking you to source your evidence on this quote of yours:
But 100% of the time, when the response is flat and the distortion is relatively low, a box of electronics will not sound any different than any other box of electronics with flat response and relatively low distortion. You don't need to "experience" or "audition" it. 100% of the time.
Where is your testing source that people won't hear a difference? Or are you assuming this is true?
There's about 40+ years worth of literature. If memory serves, someone put a thread together here with a bunch of cites, which should be easy for you to find if you're curious enough. I'm "assuming" in the same sense as "assuming" that jumping off a 5 story building onto a sidewalk will cause major injury; sure, people haven't jumped off every 5 story building, but the basics of physics and physiology make it a pretty solid assumption.
The stuff that got me off the superstition train was Lipshitz & Vanderkooy's papers from the early '80s, which I knew had to be wrong because I could hear lots of differences that they were unable to find in controlled tests. I set up an easy test between a solid state and tube preamp to prove them wrong. The differences were glaring. Then when I put in controls... oh my, I guess it was me who was wrong.
To be liars, first they must know the truth, so they should make sure there is no difference with controlled tests, etc etc And they don't do that generally, so they don't lie, they explain their experience. The thing here is how valuable is that. In some aspects, more difficult to quantify, an experience is a very good resource, so there is plenty of room for reviewers. Especially because a lot of products are just transparent, and one ends up deciding on one or the other based on these difficult to measure things.
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Some years ago, a group of Italian (if I recall correctly) physicists found strong evidence that some particles (neutrinos I think, bot not sure) could go faster than the speed of light in a very complex and costly experiment. At that time, I was a physics student at university, and everybody agreed that was impossible and they must be wrong, yet the experiment seemed to be well done. Few months later, they discovered what was wrong in their setup and explained it in a second paper.
We can see it as a conditional probability problem. What is the probability that any two DACs sound different? Lets say about 10 %, so it can happen. What is the same probability conditioned on the facts that filters are the same, frequency response is flat, levels are the same and distortion is low? Vanishing. Another example. I do a test and I get a positive on Covid, even though I have no symptoms. What is the probability that I have Covid? Quite high. But if I get a positive on Ebola with no symptoms and no positives among my community, even if the test is 99% reliable, the probability that I have Ebola is quite low. This is were skepticism comes from. It's a bet, but a good one.
IIRC it was a faulty cable. If only they'd used Audioquest.
I appreciate this question, as I don't believe it's really been fully addressed in a general fashion.
Personally, I hear no differences, but my mind is open as to whether the GENPOP is able to.
I didn't remember that. Not highly resolving enough?
Pdxwayne
Major Contributor
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Really?
Want a bet?
I am claiming that I can sense a difference between two set of DAC+amp that measured flat and has low distortion, using online 5ms timing tests as described here:
DAC and amp combos did not give same clues when running online blind tests. Why? What would be the desired clue?
Dear fellow members, please know that I can't do the kind of blind tests requested by dominikz any time soon. My family members can't be bothered. : ( So, please don't keep pushing this kind of test unless you want to get together to do the blind tests with me. ; ) Instead, please look at...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Yes, we're aware of your claim.Really?
Want a bet?
I am claiming that I can sense a difference between two set of DAC+amp that measured flat and has low distortion, using online 5ms timing tests as described here:
DAC and amp combos did not give same clues when running online blind tests. Why? What would be the desired clue?
Dear fellow members, please know that I can't do the kind of blind tests requested by dominikz any time soon. My family members can't be bothered. : ( So, please don't keep pushing this kind of test unless you want to get together to do the blind tests with me. ; ) Instead, please look at...
Level match to within 0.1dB and double blind. These are the minimum basic controls.
tbrobison
Member
First post in this thread/forum. I have read most of this thread because I recently purchased the, Denafrips Ares II. I had heard so much praise for this dac, and I wanted to experience all of the good things I had heard/read about it.
After a week and a half, I can say that I am quite disappointed. I have A/B compared it with the onboard dac of my Peachtree Nova150, which is a, Reference 9018K2M SABRE32 DAC. My system is very basic. Peachtree Nova150; Bluesound Node 2i; Denafrips Ares II; Tekton Electron speakers.
My unscientific comparison was done in this method: Node 2i optical out to Nova150 optical in; AND, Node 2i coax out to Ares II, thence Ares II analog out to Nova150 Aux in. Also connected to the Node 2i is an SSD with lossless music files stored there. So, I can either stream from Amazon Music HD, or Radio Paradise in lossless format, or I can play lossless (FLAK & AIFF) files off the SSD.
I set the volume on the Nova150 to half of its volume. I then adjust the listening volume via the Bluesound app on a Macbook Air. This allows me to hear the same volume level while switching back and forth (via the Peachtree remote), on the Nova150, from optical (the Nova150's onboard dac), and Aux-in, which plays music through the Ares II.
I played mainly files with vocals, then a couple of instrumentals. My wife also helped me in this endeavor. She had no idea which dac she was listening to, and she would tell me when to switch from one to the other. When switching from optical (nova150's Sabre dac) to Aux-in (Ares II) there was no hint/digital click the switch had been made, though there was an imperceptible difference that something had changed, but it was so unbelievably tiny, that it really wasn't describable. When switching from Aux-in to Optical, there was a digital/audible "click", but still, no real noticeable difference in the audio output. My wife doesn't know the difference between a dac and a candle, but her hearing is very good. When she said which sound she liked better, it was always the sound coming through the Sabre dac on the Nova150.
Again, nothing scientific, but I was surprised in the end. I will probably put the Ares II up for sale as I really can't justify its cost versus performance. I'm sure it's a good dac, but so is the Sabre32. Probably use the funds to buy more music.
After a week and a half, I can say that I am quite disappointed. I have A/B compared it with the onboard dac of my Peachtree Nova150, which is a, Reference 9018K2M SABRE32 DAC. My system is very basic. Peachtree Nova150; Bluesound Node 2i; Denafrips Ares II; Tekton Electron speakers.
My unscientific comparison was done in this method: Node 2i optical out to Nova150 optical in; AND, Node 2i coax out to Ares II, thence Ares II analog out to Nova150 Aux in. Also connected to the Node 2i is an SSD with lossless music files stored there. So, I can either stream from Amazon Music HD, or Radio Paradise in lossless format, or I can play lossless (FLAK & AIFF) files off the SSD.
I set the volume on the Nova150 to half of its volume. I then adjust the listening volume via the Bluesound app on a Macbook Air. This allows me to hear the same volume level while switching back and forth (via the Peachtree remote), on the Nova150, from optical (the Nova150's onboard dac), and Aux-in, which plays music through the Ares II.
I played mainly files with vocals, then a couple of instrumentals. My wife also helped me in this endeavor. She had no idea which dac she was listening to, and she would tell me when to switch from one to the other. When switching from optical (nova150's Sabre dac) to Aux-in (Ares II) there was no hint/digital click the switch had been made, though there was an imperceptible difference that something had changed, but it was so unbelievably tiny, that it really wasn't describable. When switching from Aux-in to Optical, there was a digital/audible "click", but still, no real noticeable difference in the audio output. My wife doesn't know the difference between a dac and a candle, but her hearing is very good. When she said which sound she liked better, it was always the sound coming through the Sabre dac on the Nova150.
Again, nothing scientific, but I was surprised in the end. I will probably put the Ares II up for sale as I really can't justify its cost versus performance. I'm sure it's a good dac, but so is the Sabre32. Probably use the funds to buy more music.
dkinric
Addicted to Fun and Learning
tbrobison, welcome to ASR!
Amir's extensive testing has shown that there is little correlation between price and performance for DACs, so your decision is likely a "sound" one. You may want to check out the review index for a good place to start for your next purchase.
Amir's extensive testing has shown that there is little correlation between price and performance for DACs, so your decision is likely a "sound" one. You may want to check out the review index for a good place to start for your next purchase.
