Delay for subwoofers

[olds1959special]

I’m using an 8ms delay on my mains due to the group delay of my subwoofers. The speakers and subs are placed right next to each other. The 8ms delay on the mains improved the sound. Did I do this right?

 

[Chrispy]

Group delay and delay for setup with speakers aren't the same thing. Speakers and subs being adjacent isn't necessarily the best location for the subs. What gear are you using to adjust delay? What's all the gear for that matter....

 

[olds1959special]

Group delay and delay for setup with speakers aren't the same thing. Speakers and subs being adjacent isn't necessarily the best location for the subs. What gear are you using to adjust delay? What's all the gear for that matter....

MiniDSP 2x4 HD. I don’t use a LPF on my subs and find them localizable hence the proximity to my mains. I estimate 10ms average group delay from this chart, then my speakers are 2 feet farther away from the listening position, so that’s how I got to the idea to delay the mains by 8ms and it seems to sound better.

 

[Doodski]

MiniDSP 2x4 HD. I don’t use a LPF on my subs and find them localizable hence the proximity to my mains. I estimate 10ms average group delay from this chart, then my speakers are 2 feet farther away from the listening position, so that’s how I got to the idea to delay the mains by 8ms and it seems to sound better.View attachment 484146View attachment 484145

I am the kind of Dood that has in the past turned my gear around backwards because I used the back panel and connectors more than I liked looking at the front panels...LoL. My present large gaming PC box with 200mm fans and totally perforated with small holes front and top covers are removed and in the closet because they catch all the dust and it looks terrible and I don't like even touching the box or PCBs because as I found out when repairing for ~15 years about 55K+ units of repair that gear gets damaged and mysteriously stops working sometimes just because a person touched it. So I have a had a hands off approach for many years and that works for me very well. So... I see your gear turned sideways in the cabinet and that triggers my curiosity. Why have you done that?

 

[skankhobag]

Well, maybe. Or, maybe not.

A couple things you may not have realized or just don’t know (which is OK).

Group delay is not a constant. It changes with frequency and usually increases with decreasing frequency with subs. It’s expressed in milliseconds so you’re good there as far as how you’re going about it. The lower the crossover point, the greater the delay you’ll need to have a hopefully ideal transition between the subs and mains.

Not knowing the actual group delay and having no instrumentation, using your ears to obtain a smooth crossover is valid.

If it sounds good, go with it.

If you can run room correction software at some point in the future, you’ll want to remove the delay.

Factoid: at 70F degrees, the speed of sound is a hair over 13 inches per millisecond. Your delay is equivalent to moving your mains 9ft back from the listening position.

26 years ago, I couldn’t really get smooth in-room response from my two subs when they were by the mains. The area behind the speakers was huge and the room wasn’t perfectly regular. The bass modes were killer.

Doing a little research, it seemed that I should try leaving the right sub by the right main and move the left sub to the left rear corner.

Running the subs in mono and adjusting for corner gain from the rear sub helped a bit, but the listening position still suffered from some room modes. I delayed the rear sub and 11ms was the value that worked the best. While not perfect, it worked very well.

My system was a vintage Marantz pre driving the best active speakers Paradigm ever made (LCR-450’s). The subs were their Servo 15 model. The mains had 80Hz crossovers built in. I used a Digitech DSP-256 studio multi-effects processor to drive the subs and create surround sound.

I used my acquired knowledge and my ears to dial in better sound.

 

[olds1959special]

I am the kind of Dood that has in the past turned my gear around backwards because I used the back panel and connectors more than I liked looking at the front panels...LoL. My present large gaming PC box with 200mm fans and totally perforated with small holes front and top covers are removed and in the closet because they catch all the dust and it looks terrible and I don't like even touching the box or PCBs because as I found out when repairing for ~15 years about 55K+ units of repair that gear gets damaged and mysteriously stops working sometimes just because a person touched it. So I have a had a hands off approach for many years and that works for me very well. So... I see your gear turned sideways in the cabinet and that triggers my curiosity. Why have you done that?

It’s just the only way the four amps could fit in this cabinet.

 

[levimax]

MiniDSP 2x4 HD. I don’t use a LPF on my subs and find them localizable hence the proximity to my mains. I estimate 10ms average group delay from this chart, then my speakers are 2 feet farther away from the listening position, so that’s how I got to the idea to delay the mains by 8ms and it seems to sound better.View attachment 484146View attachment 484145

This makes sense for a ballpark estimate but in addition to group delay, since your subs have DSP, there is going to be additional DSP latency. For SVS subs there is 6 ms DSP latency, I don"t know what the Klipsh is but there are forums where I'm sure people know. If more than 1 or 2 ms I would add that to your delay and see if you like the sound even better.

 

[olds1959special]

This makes sense for a ballpark estimate but in addition to group delay, since your subs have DSP, there is going to be additional DSP latency. For SVS subs there is 6 ms DSP latency, I don"t know what the Klipsh is but there are forums where I'm sure people know. If more than 1 or 2 ms I would add that to your delay and see if you like the sound even better.

I’ve been trying different settings and settled on delaying the mains 14.55 ms.