Defining (Objectively) A Dream System (is it the 8c?)

[Flaesh]

ow important should we deem the cardoid response offered by 8c to be ?

It would be interesting to compare a regular and a cardioid, all other things being equal. A friend from the village won't want to bring 8C to me. And mine are even less suitable for transport (two speakers means two boxes, two WGs, two amplifiers, three power supplies, and a processor). Not to mention the different room layouts.

, not ineffable connoisseur claptrap.

This does not prevent such connoisseurs from listening to cable stands and crystals with 8C. The first local 8C review which I read was exactly like this

AFAIK AsciLab produces cardioid and conventional speakers, two pairs of similar ones would be ideal candidates for such testing. All things being equal, in the same room, with the same listeners and measurements etc. Perhaps this has already been done(??)

 

[Cote Dazur]

two pairs of similar ones would be ideal candidates for such testing

Are you saying we would test them as a pair, I know of at list 2 ASR member that would not agree.

 

[Flaesh]

Are you saying

Yeah, I said it .

know of at list 2 ASR member that

And I know which respected members you're talking about! You don't even have to force them to participate.
Seriously, this isn't about testing the speaker per se. The subject of this study is the audible and measurable benefit of a cardioid in a system consisting of a pair of speakers* typically used for stereo music, a room, and a listener.

*Some people constantly listen to one single speaker in their home music system for one reason or another. But I think that's less than 66%, and even much less than 33%. I know almost two such people.

Spoiler

One is a confirmed retro maniac, with a terrifying monster OB with several 70-80-year-old different cone drivers. The other is a young man who was sent one monitor instead of a pair by a dishonest seller; but now he more often uses a pair of desktop speakers or smart speaker.

 

[tifune]

It would be interesting to compare a regular and a cardioid, all other things being equal.

I sort of did this, my BX8C has 3 modes - cardioid to 100HZ, 50hz, and 35Hz. Notice basically no effect on FR between them, but the 100Hz mode (P1) has a resonance at 77Hz

 

[Flaesh]

basically no effect

Agree.
The lower hundreds of hertz range is more interesting.
Here's an old measurement (the crossover isn't quite set up, but we're talking about resonances and decay):

MLP, ~4m stereo triangle, simply sealed boxes.

 

[Rob_Gordon]

Of course. Long post for that question.

So why? For what reason(s) would it a be a bad choice? What's the point of just underlining my ignorance?

 

[Satanica]

I haven't read the thread yet. In short, my opinion is "no." I listened to 8s for half a day. Made a special trip to the suburbs for it)).


That wouldn't hurt)) What exactly would you like to improve?

This is a normal and necessary property of any normal and functioning stereo system.

If my memory serves me correctly from another thread, you never heard them with an unaltered high frequency response; you only heard them with boosted treble, correct?

 

[Satanica]

My lay understanding is that it matters to the extent you have room modes in the 100-300 range, which many small-large rooms have.

I think it's better than just 100-300Hz in the case of the 8C. Most monopoles start widening in radiation from about 1kHz and down; the 8c's (practically) do not because of the cardioid cancellation.

 

[Flaesh]

you only heard them with boosted treble, correct?

I? 8C, which I listened to once? With boosted treble? Who and for what purpose had boost treble? Can you provide the source for this?

 

[Satanica]

I? 8C, which I listened to once? With boosted treble? Who and for what purpose had boost treble? Can you provide the source for this?

Just yes or no would suffice.

 

[Flaesh]

Just yes or no would suffice.

I don't know what's going on in your memory. So I asked a few clarifying questions. And I'm just curious how such a strange question came about.

 

[Purité Audio]

It would be interesting to compare a regular and a cardioid, all other things being equal. A friend from the village won't want to bring 8C to me. And mine are even less suitable for transport (two speakers means two boxes, two WGs, two amplifiers, three power supplies, and a processor). Not to mention the different room layouts.


This does not prevent such connoisseurs from listening to cable stands and crystals with 8C. The first local 8C review which I read was exactly like this

AFAIK AsciLab produces cardioid and conventional speakers, two pairs of similar ones would be ideal candidates for such testing. All things being equal, in the same room, with the same listeners and measurements etc. Perhaps this has already been done(??)

I have AsciLab’s A6B ( Purifi based passive ) and their C8C/BX8C and the C8C’s do sound more separate from the room, the A6Bs more of the room.
Ideally as you state one would want to hear both side by side.
Keith

 

[Marc v E]

The answer is no. Even if you have perfect frequency response and directivity, stereo speakers have some limitations that mean you have some choices to make.

1. What is your ideal pattern width? Do you prefer wide or narrow dispersion, or maybe even Omni or dipole? None of these is considered fundamentally more correct than the others. Stereo reproduction just needs two speakers that allow the creation of a stereo image, but the "pinpoint" vs. "envelopment" question is up to the listener.

2. How much do you care about dynamics? This boils down to getting more or less sensitive speakers, maybe leading to horns. Are you willing to trade off anything for unclipped, high peaks?

3. How much do you care about distortion and clean bass? This may turn you away from smaller systems like the 8c, or not.

4. How much do you care about phase coherence? There are users here who swear no system without flat or nearly flat phase down to the bass region is really hi-fi. Do you agree?

5. How much spl is enough for you and how big of a room will you be in? This will tell you how big the speaker needs to be.


Well, there is one, it's the preference score associated with the familiar Spinorama / CEA 2034 measurements. You can see this ranking at spinorama.org. however, you'll notice that this ranking has nothing to say about the above questions. No single number can objectively rank all speakers for all listeners because some important factors can't be defined as more or less hi-fi or aren't scientifically established as important to most listeners. In the latter case that doesn't mean they don't matter, and won't matter to you, just that we don't have the evidence to say it definitely matters for all speakers.

So unfortunately I can't tell you it's that simple. Reaching a final endgame system will require you to make some choices.

This, in my experience, is spot on.

Given that frequency response is even from direct sound and the curve matches the indirect sound curve at 15, 20, 30 degrees, it makes the speaker objectively good. (And easy to eq)

The only thing we could add is some suggestions of speakers that have a particular trait you (@kemmler3D) mentioned, so that the OP can get an experience of that in a demo.

@Rob_Gordon: great question !
If you follow what @kemmler3D said you may get a feel for what it means to have a speaker with wide dispersion or narrow, for example. And you'll know your preference and your end goal.
That could well be within reach right now; doesn't need to cost as much as a d&d 8c ime.

 

[Satanica]

I don't know what's going on in your memory. So I asked a few clarifying questions. And I'm just curious how such a strange question came about.

Well, I think this is post I'm referring to. But you didn't actually mention a boosted treble so I was wrong. But it does raise the point, that the 8C's are highly configurable and one might do harm rather than good when changing settings.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ch-dutch-8c-review.21016/page-69#post-2656699

 

[markstein]

If someone says: « my budget it 15K », is there a better answer than the 8c? If yes, what/why?
If someone says: « my budget is 30K », is there a better answer than the 8c? If yes, what/why?

Is the question « what is the best system available? » easy? Shouldn’t it be?

tl;dr: how to reasonably define the « best system » available?

Regarding the 8C, I did not like them so much. They are definitely too expensive IMO. Some EQ maybe would have changed my impression, however, I went for Ascilab C8C and BX8C in the end which sound great without EQ above 200-300Hz.

Upgrade from Neumann KH310 for home listening?

Hi all, What do you do when you have 2 days off? Right - test some speakers at home! I am currently thinking about replacing my Neumann KH310 as I feel they are not designed for my irregularly shaped, asymmetric, non treated living room and the relatively long listening distance (2.5 m for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Important question is whether you have a dedicated room for music listening allowing optimal loudspeaker placement and some room treatment. If you listen in a "normal" room with compromises regarding the above, cardioid design IMO makes an important difference, and I would focus on loudspeakers with that feature. Other candidates besides the D&D 8C and Ascilab C8C are Mesanovic CDM 65, GGNTKT M1 and M3 and some Sigberg models (also very expensive IMO).

Regarding my experience so far, if you want perfect bass, I would also consider 2-4 subwoofers and Dirac ART (2 subwoofers with fullrange mains or 4 subwoofers with compact mains).

 

[Satanica]

Speakers with wider dispersion should create a bigger sweat spot and so should maintain more of the main listening position sound from other seats. Obviously this might mean something or nothing depending on the use case of the individual buyer. I think it's a nice to have.

 

[Flaesh]

I was wrong

Ok.
ps: I once described (I think I wrote about this on ASR, but I couldn't find it) a funny incident with an audiophile guest listening to my system. He needed some.. eehh.. hhmm.. some more.. umm.. (he tried to explain this with gestures and facial expressions), so I turned up the high-shelf boost to +7 dB with a center, say 8k, and then the guest became really happy. About three years later, I told him that this his сharming audiophile air was simply an equalizer. He's a reserved and gentle person; otherwise, his reaction might have been different .

 

[Satanica]

Ok.

This is what you actually wrote.

"We didn't play it particularly loud back then. And perhaps something wasn't perfect with the 8C settings. The owner won't bring them to me."

So, for a much more fair comparison, you would need to have them in your own listening room for some time and be allowed to play as loud as you want. Add to that, probably do some settings optimisation.

 

[Rob_Gordon]

This, in my experience, is spot on.

Given that frequency response is even from direct sound and the curve matches the indirect sound curve at 15, 20, 30 degrees, it makes the speaker objectively good. (And easy to eq)

The only thing we could add is some suggestions of speakers that have a particular trait you (@kemmler3D) mentioned, so that the OP can get an experience of that in a demo.

@Rob_Gordon: great question !
If you follow what @kemmler3D said you may get a feel for what it means to have a speaker with wide dispersion or narrow, for example. And you'll know your preference and your end goal.
That could well be within reach right now; doesn't need to cost as much as a d&d 8c ime.

Thank you very much for this.

I'm going to a show at the end of the month. Hopefully, they will have both!

 

[Rob_Gordon]

Regarding the 8C, I did not like them so much. They are definitely too expensive IMO. Some EQ maybe would have changed my impression, however, I went for Ascilab C8C and BX8C in the end which sound great without EQ above 200-300Hz.

Upgrade from Neumann KH310 for home listening?

Hi all, What do you do when you have 2 days off? Right - test some speakers at home! I am currently thinking about replacing my Neumann KH310 as I feel they are not designed for my irregularly shaped, asymmetric, non treated living room and the relatively long listening distance (2.5 m for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Important question is whether you have a dedicated room for music listening allowing optimal loudspeaker placement and some room treatment. If you listen in a "normal" room with compromises regarding the above, cardioid design IMO makes an important difference, and I would focus on loudspeakers with that feature. Other candidates besides the D&D 8C and Ascilab C8C are Mesanovic CDM 65, GGNTKT M1 and M3 and some Sigberg models (also very expensive IMO).

Regarding my experience so far, if you want perfect bass, I would also consider 2-4 subwoofers and Dirac ART (2 subwoofers with fullrange mains or 4 subwoofers with compact mains).

Thank you very much for all these references. I had never heard of Mesanovic before!