Defining (Objectively) A Dream System (is it the 8c?)

[Rob_Gordon]

I haven't read the thread yet. In short, my opinion is "no." I listened to 8s for half a day. Made a special trip to the suburbs for it)).

and ?! Were you disappointed? Is that what you're implying. And if so, what does it mean? How can one be disappointed by an exceptionally great measuring speakers?

That wouldn't hurt)) What exactly would you like to improve?

Why? What would it change?

I'm not trying to improve anything, really, as stated in the first post.
I guess I'm asking: in a world where you can't test/try out any high end systems, what are the potential reasonable goal if you want something one could call SOTA?

 

[Flaesh]

Were you disappointed?

I would say "I was not delighted or enchanted."
I definetely wouldn't want to replace my system with this, no matter the price. And it's not just the bass that's the reason.

Why? What would it change?

Post #2 does not answer this question? IMO this is exactly what matters.

 

[Rob_Gordon]

I would say "I was not delighted or enchanted."
I definetely wouldn't want to replace my system with this, no matter the price. And it's not just the bass that's the reason.

Do you know what that is? What is your system?

Post #2 does not answer this question? IMO this is exactly what matters.

Ahaha, yeah, that #2 post is great. It does answer me, I was just reformulating

 

[kemmler3D]

"even though everything (important) is measurable, some things are not objectively better than others because they do rely on taste/preferences". Is that right? There isn't an objectively good dispersion

Yes, basically. Narrow vs. wide is a matter of preference, even Floyd Toole acknowledges there's no objective answer to it.

Unfortunately the best way to decide is to hear different systems in your own room, or at least side by side in the same room.

Some of these things you could simulate or at least experience in part with DSP and sitting close to your speakers, though. You can at least get some idea.

I think overall a true endgame speaker might be achievable for most people at $10k if DIY and secondhand are on the table.

 

[kemmler3D]

what are the potential reasonable goal if you want something one could call SOTA?

If you want to know what you're missing I would say the big thing to try would be to see how horn speakers sound to you. On paper they don't look so different from cone speakers but the higher dynamic capacity and generally narrower dispersion sometimes really enchants people.

 

[Flaesh]

What is your system?

Now DCX464+SEOS24, 15" sealed MB, DBA subs (link in signature), 8 channels of V3 , Flex8 IIR XO, PC. Very cheap and dirty indecent boxes, 2x40 and 4x200 litres. Not a single decent cable. I don't know the price, maybe around 4k bucks. Nice boxes can add a lot. Decent amplifiers and cables can too.
Mr. Widget had speakers cooler (probably except for the bass), but he's now using an 8C. Freedom of choice exists, take your pick)).

in a world where you can't test/try out

About 15+ years ago, having never heard home horn speakers, I [edit: Understanding what exactly I want to improve!] built myself a two-way speaker system with cheap DSP and random amps. I slightly (after all, no one but me is to blame for this)) regretted not having done it earlier. Later, I listened to some other speakers, including Westlake, OWA, JBL, Klipsch.. It would be interesting to listen to the carefully installed BlueHorns.

generally narrower

How much? M2 WG or round exponential eg?)))

 

[Adi777]

Stupid question, or maybe not?
What do we do first? Do we acoustically treat the room and then buy the best possible speakers for our needs, or do we buy the speakers first and handle acoustic treatment later?

 

[Mort]

Can great measuring speakers be a bad choice? If so, why

Of course. Long post for that question.

 

[ShadowFiend]

Stupid question, or maybe not?
What do we do first? Do we acoustically treat the room and then buy the best possible speakers for our needs, or do we buy the speakers first and handle acoustic treatment later?

Unless you are in process or have mean to renovate a room just for listening purpose, I lean toward getting the best possible speakers within your financial, taste and WAF (if necessary) constraints first. Room treatment can come later at gradually pace.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Stupid question, or maybe not?
What do we do first? Do we acoustically treat the room and then buy the best possible speakers for our needs, or do we buy the speakers first and handle acoustic treatment later?

Great question. I most cases, we all already have a room and a pair of speaker, so the first step is improve the room, changing speaker might not be needed once the room play nice.

 

[Mort]

Stupid question, or maybe not?
What do we do first? Do we acoustically treat the room and then buy the best possible speakers for our needs, or do we buy the speakers first and handle acoustic treatment later?

Assuming a medium sized rectangular room, I would determine volume, directivity, bass extension needed and then look for the best matching speaker. Only then would I even think about room treatment.

 

[Mort]

If you want to know what you're missing I would say the big thing to try would be to see how horn speakers sound to you. On paper they don't look so different from cone speakers but the higher dynamic capacity and generally narrower dispersion sometimes really enchants people.

Or the other direction with a wide dispersion full range speaker like a salon 2 or a BMR Tower.

 

[Mnyb]

How important should we deem the cardoid response offered by 8c to be ? i do use some DRC in the bass , given that how much better does it gets with a cardoid speaker

 

[Mort]

How important should we deem the cardoid response offered by 8c to be ? i do use some DRC in the bass , given that how much better does it gets with a cardoid speaker

My lay understanding is that it matters to the extent you have room modes in the 100-300 range, which many small-large rooms have.

 

[Mnyb]

My lay understanding is that it matters to the extent you have room modes in the 100-300 range, which many small-large rooms have.

Thanks it s where most practical rooms in normal houses have issues , so this would be interesting .

 

[HalSF]

A lot of hi-fi discourse makes the process of assembling a system seem fiendishly complex, perilous, a narrow path through potential mistakes and errors, essentially a harrowing process of elimination and refinement requiring highly technical choices. A journey with few successful brilliant”end-game” answers and numerous possible disasters and looming failures.

I think just the opposite! There are hundreds of good answers and accessible solutions to good sound. It’s now almost trivially easy to find speakers that measure well, incredible price-to-performance deals in amplification, superb inexpensive DAC delivery of music, a huge panoply of excellent affordable headphones and IEM, EQ tools almost everywhere, and increasingly simple and easy solutions to deal with room challenges. The average phone is now a completely acceptable hi-fi source component. On the cheap portable side, an abundance of Bluetooth speakers that sound more than decent makes the boomboxes and mini systems of yore seem crude and primitive.

You really have to make a perverse effort or buy with complete obliviousness to put together a truly bad-sounding unpleasurable system these days. Getting exactly the right things matters far less than you might think.

 

[fpitas]

You really have to make a perverse effort or buy with complete obliviousness to put together a truly bad-sounding unpleasurable system these days. Getting exactly the right things matters far less than you might think.

I agree. With reasonable attention to the room, the final frontier of personal preference is speakers. And no one can tell you what kind of speaker you prefer.

 

[Cote Dazur]

A lot of hi-fi discourse makes the process of assembling a system seem fiendishly complex, perilous, a narrow path through potential mistakes and errors, essentially a harrowing process of elimination and refinement requiring highly technical choices. A journey with few successful brilliant”end-game” answers and numerous possible disasters and looming failures.

I think just the opposite! There are hundreds of good answers and accessible solutions to good sound. It’s now almost trivially easy to find speakers that measure well, incredible price-to-performance deals in amplification, superb inexpensive DAC delivery of music, a huge panoply of excellent affordable headphones and IEM, EQ tools almost everywhere, and increasingly simple and easy solutions to deal with room challenges. The average phone is now a completely acceptable hi-fi source component. On the cheap portable side, an abundance of Bluetooth speakers that sound more than decent makes the boomboxes and mini systems of yore seem crude and primitive.

You really have to make a perverse effort or buy with complete obliviousness to put together a truly bad-sounding unpleasurable system these days. Getting exactly the right things matters far less than you might think.

I agree with your conclusion but not for the reason you give, I think that the path is not as perilous as we some time make it to be because we adapt very quickly, our brain makes the correction needed for us to hear trough the devices, room and all.
Yes we have now access to better for less, but what we had 40 years ago, was already excellent as far as playing music.
As hobbyist, part of the pleasure for many is the experimentation, what if I did this or that.
It is not needed to enjoy music at home, but exchanging with fellow hobbyist about possible gain is part of the fun, at least for me.

 

[HalSF]

I agree with your conclusion but not for the reason you give, I think that the path is not as perilous as we some time make it to be because we adapt very quickly, our brain makes the correction needed for us to hear trough the devices, room and all.
Yes we have now access to better for less, but what we had 40 years ago, was already excellent as far as playing music.
As hobbyist, part of the pleasure for many is the experimentation, what if I did this or that.
It is not needed to enjoy music at home, but exchanging with fellow hobbyist about possible gain is part of the fun, at least for me.

One big difference from decades ago is that the power and influence of the bonkers purely subjective upselling high end has been significantly weakened. At $16.5k list price per pair the Dutch & Dutch 8c is hardly a killer bargain, but it’s striking how objective the sales pitch is, all about neutrality, precision, and in-room tonal balance, not ineffable connoisseur claptrap.

 

[kemmler3D]

A lot of hi-fi discourse makes the process of assembling a system seem fiendishly complex, perilous, a narrow path through potential mistakes and errors, essentially a harrowing process of elimination and refinement requiring highly technical choices. A journey with few successful brilliant”end-game” answers and numerous possible disasters and looming failures.

I think just the opposite! There are hundreds of good answers and accessible solutions to good sound. It’s now almost trivially easy to find speakers that measure well, incredible price-to-performance deals in amplification, superb inexpensive DAC delivery of music, a huge panoply of excellent affordable headphones and IEM, EQ tools almost everywhere, and increasingly simple and easy solutions to deal with room challenges. The average phone is now a completely acceptable hi-fi source component. On the cheap portable side, an abundance of Bluetooth speakers that sound more than decent makes the boomboxes and mini systems of yore seem crude and primitive.

You really have to make a perverse effort or buy with complete obliviousness to put together a truly bad-sounding unpleasurable system these days. Getting exactly the right things matters far less than you might think.

I think the perilous path is when you try to go for "SOTA" or "endgame" or basically just going from good to great speakers. You do need to get a bit technical if you're going to be able to find the real value champion for your preferences in a given high-ish price range. There are all too many people who are happy to steer you wrong (for money or just with mistaken enthusiasm) and land you with a system that is more expensive but not obviously better than your current one.

Or to put it another way, it is pretty hard to get significant improvements once you're solidly inside the regime of diminishing returns. Hence this thread.

Overall I agree though, good sound has never been more accessible.