Defining High-Res Audio ...

[NorthSky]

♦ http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...ing-defining-high-res-audio.html#post46479569 → Just over 60 posts of great information.

Just over two weeks ago we were welcomed to ask questions to an audio expert on HRA, +++

"Who's the expert? Bob O'Donnell, the founder, president, and chief analyst at Technalysis Research, has enjoyed a long, multi-faceted career in the technology business. The firm's research and Bob's opinions are regularly used by major media outlets, including the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg TV, Investor's Business Daily and more. Bob writes a weekly column/blog for Techpinions.com and a biweekly column for the Tech section of USA Today. He also occasionally writes guest columns for Fast Company, engadget, Smarter Analyst, Indian Engineers, and other digital publications. In addition, he participates in a weekly podcast for Techpinions. For some of Bob's thoughts on high-res audio, check out a recent blog he wrote.

Prior to founding Technalysis Research, Bob served as a vice president at industry-research firm IDC. He was also the editor of Electronic Musician and Music Technology magazines, where he gained a deep knowledge of digital audio. In addition, Bob is the author of the book Personal Computer Secrets, and for over 10 years, he hosted O'Donnell on Technology, a radio show that was selected as the Best Computer Audio program in the country by the Computer Press Awards. You can follow him on Twitter @BobOD tech, on Facebook at Bob O'Donnell, and on LinkedIn at Bob O'Donnell. "

________

Here's that original link: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...ing-defining-high-res-audio.html#post46091929 → 300 posts.

I have been following those two threads with great great interest...both questions and answers.
@ the end it's not all black and white. It comes in many colors...depending of the recording processes and their encoding.

It leaves me @ lost in this audio industry; because there is so much ambiguity for so many people with a passion for music and desire for higher audio listening experience.
There is no doubt in my mind of the real audio integrity of higher sound quality...the analog mediums of reel-to-reel tapes and LPs. It might not measure like some would love, but it sounds so smooth and soothing for the ears and soul of a Man/Woman/Child.

Please forgive me to give a personal opinion. I have no right to do so. I hope I didn't offend anyone's emotional stance.

Cheers, and happy reading.

 

[NorthSky]

You guys like audio tests for hi-res audiofiles? ...Me too → http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...-listening-test-audiophiles.html#post46469681

 

[amirm]

Hi Bob. I read the Bob O'Donnell's blog. There was little to nothing there. He writes for the masses, not enthusiasts. He is also not technical and the last guy that should be summoned for questions from our type of people. Here is his bio: http://www.technalysisresearch.com/about2.html

"O'Donnell is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame, with a B.A. in the Program of Liberal Studies, an interdisciplinary humanities program based on the Great Books. Just for fun, O'Donnell started a horn-based band called The Headliners, for which he plays trombone and composes original songs.

[...]

Prior to founding TECHnalysis Research, O'Donnell served as Program Vice President, Clients and Displays for industry research firm IDC. He spent 14+ years at IDC, rising from a Research Manager covering monitor and display technologies to a highly successful VP responsible for the company's worldwide mobile phone, tablet, PC and thin client research, as well as the ODM production of notebooks. O'Donnell also led IDC’s display research program, which tracked both the sales and technology trends affecting the worldwide market for computer monitors, televisions and related technologies, as well as the market for large LCD panels, touch panels and ODM production of monitors and TVs. During his last five years there, O'Donnell worked extensively with sell side and buy side financial clients around the world through the company's Investment Research Services (IRS) and Tech Investor groups and their partnerships with Instinet and Bloomberg TradeBook."

As usual, Sony, the sponsor of that upcoming Q/A is confused like other large companies about the nature of these forums. They took a guy that you bring in to back your announcement of new product to MSNBC, not a technical geek to answer the type of questions he is getting in AVS Forum. MQA??? I am confident that is the first time he has heard those three letters and no amount of googling is going to help him figure out what it is.

The talk is coming up in an hour it says. If I can find the link I will listen/watch it and see if I am wrong.

 

[amirm]

Looks like the event is over almost before it started! http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...-ask-me-anything-defining-high-res-audio.html

He did a bit better than I thought, i.e. could spell MQA. But not much of an event with just a handful of posts.

 

[amirm]

It leaves me @ lost in this audio industry; because there is so much ambiguity for so many people with a passion for music and desire for higher audio listening experience.

This is a good question Bob. There *are* answers here, just not to satisfaction of every hobbyist in audio.

On high-resolution, the wrong answer is to chase the specs. The right answer is to get the original master in whatever format it was recorded in. If the source was 48K/24-bit, that is what I want. If it is 96/24, that is what I want. When we took these files to CD's established 16/44.1, we had to convert the bits. Since we can now deliver bits electronically, then that requirement is over. Continued conversion to CD format is improper and has no place in audiophile's vocabulary.

Another important thing is to create a marketplace for digital delivery of uncompressed music. If we don't, when CD sales decline and they will do so, we will be stuck with compressed music and that, we can show to not sound as good as it can.

Speaking of compressed music, it must also be part of our consumption of music. We already do that with Youtube. For on the run listening, it is fantastic in the car. I just queue up Amazon Prime or Tidal and tell it to play music like what I have purchased/liked. And it plays for hours with no reception issues, advertising, etc.

I will have more to say on this but thought I get us started.

 

[amirm]

You guys like audio tests for hi-res audiofiles? ...Me too → http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...-listening-test-audiophiles.html#post46469681

I am grumpy about the latest versions of ABX plug-in from Foobar. Folks behind it are so determined to make people fail such tests that they removed the on-going statistics of how you are doing. You are only told the results at the end. This makes it very difficult to a) learn where the differences are and b) find those difficult segments. With many degradations in audio, the area affected is not universal for the entire clip. If we want to claim that two files are identical sounding, we need to give every help we can to the listener to find those differences. The latest version of ABX makes that impossible to do, tilting the odds toward not finding differences.

I happened to be on HA forum where this was suggested and implemented and after testing, I uninstalled it and put in the old version. It is a shame really and the community is victim of DIY crowd to build them these tools.

 

[Thomas savage]

This is a good question Bob. There *are* answers here, just not to satisfaction of every hobbyist in audio.

On high-resolution, the wrong answer is to chase the specs. The right answer is to get the original master in whatever format it was recorded in. If the source was 48K/24-bit, that is what I want. If it is 96/24, that is what I want. When we took these files to CD's established 16/44.1, we had to convert the bits. Since we can now deliver bits electronically, then that requirement is over. Continued conversion to CD format is improper and has no place in audiophile's vocabulary.

Another important thing is to create a marketplace for digital delivery of uncompressed music. If we don't, when CD sales decline and they will do so, we will be stuck with compressed music and that, we can show to not sound as good as it can.

Speaking of compressed music, it must also be part of our consumption of music. We already do that with Youtube. For on the run listening, it is fantastic in the car. I just queue up Amazon Prime or Tidal and tell it to play music like what I have purchased/liked. And it plays for hours with no reception issues, advertising, etc.

I will have more to say on this but thought I get us started.

I totally agree, the music should be delivered in what ever format it was mastered in.. No conversions the need to make it smaller is not valid anymore and if we want to do that in order to put in on ur phone or whatever we can do it ourselves.

Simple.

Keep it all PCM, one format, distribute it in the mastering sample rate etc . Not higher not lower. If you want to mess with it, the customer can do that their end.

 

[TBone]

I am grumpy about the latest versions of ABX plug-in from Foobar.

is the latest version 2.0.2?

 

[TBone]

...

Keep it all PCM, one format, distribute it in the mastering sample rate etc . Not higher not lower. If you want to mess with it, the customer can do that their end.

That, and I also wish I had a maid.

 

[Thomas savage]

...


That, and I also wish I had a maid.

Believe me, you don't

 

[Blumlein 88]

Count me in too as one who wants it in the original resolution whatever that was. Minimum manipulation into my hands where I can manipulate it further or leave it alone to see how the guys recorded it to start with. If transcribing from some other medium 48/24 suits me fine and 96/24 too. Don't see the need for any more than that.

 

[NorthSky]

The passion and dedication some of us have for higher music listening experience cannot be taken away by anybody.

It is very simple; high-res audio is anything uncompressed, like reel-to-reel tapes and albums (LPs) and anything higher thand CD Red Book @ low res of 16/44.1
It starts with high-res musicians, high-res singers, high-res musical instruments, high-res microphones, high-res cables, high-res recording machines, high-res monitors, high-res studios and concert halls, high-res recording engineers, high-res purity all over the air.

Bob said it well; if everything done properly, from the music album recording (mics included) to the mastering and music reproduction system, 20-bit/88.2kHz is HRA. Put that label on and you're good to go. Listen for any imperfections, any deviations from the absolute music quality recording integrity, and if somewhere along the chain there was less than the original music recording integrity of its true Master in all its purity glory, then remove that HRA label and stick it to your fridge's door.

Some music recordings sound right, sound hi-res, others (many) sound wrong, sound low-res and belong to second class compressed/manipulated audiofiles.
Our job is to find out which ones are worthy of our precious time and investment.

It's nobody's fault, Bob included...we all do this for a living. It's just that some are more serious than others about our music sound quality.
Sound matters.

* This was an interesting read and discussion for me; I learned some more from few...Bob included, plus from the higher knowledgeable/technically inclined.

Now a question for you guys right here: Is CD high-res or not?
And this: Is vinyl and tape closer to the Master than digital CD?
And finally: What is the highest fidelity in music reproduction @ home from our sound systems?

Don't rush, take all your precious time to answer the three questions correctly. It's not a test, it's a real exam that will help determine your next direction in your audio life. Of course I am serious.

 

[TBone]

Is CD high-res or not?

Not by definition, but that may matter zilch if one believes mastering/pressing dependencies play larger roles.

If you're a fan of Adele 21, for example (this bugs me silly) ...
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc?artist=adele&album=21

 

[TBone]

Don't see the need for any more than that.

the marketing $ide will never let go ...

 

[amirm]

is the latest version 2.0.2?

I don't know the latest version. What I have that is prior to changes is 1.3.4.

 

[TBone]

I've never used the tool before, hence my curiosity. Does the new version lack comprehensive stats at the end of the process?

 

[amirm]

And this: Is vinyl and tape closer to the Master than digital CD?

What was the source, digital or analog? If digital, then CD is by far more transparent. It is so "good" that when we "butcher" it down to 256 kbps MP3/AAC, folks still can't tell.

If the source was analog, then a CD copy to me is still more transparent than applying playback analog technology to it. In the case of tape, it is pretty close but hiss and noise gets added. In the case of LP, every playback system sounds different than others due to variations in cartridge, pre-amp and the deck itself. So in that regard, it is not transparent at all. But of course could be more likeable.

In my older age , I have become very critical of LP artifacts. I hear them in almost all presentations through it regardless of price. Clicks and pops are super annoying too.

 

[amirm]

I've never used the tool before, hence my curiosity. Does the new version lack comprehensive stats at the end of the process?

No, it has that. It is just that the old version would tell you when you voted the totals up to that point. So if you were in trial #4 and you got that right, you would know. With the new version it tells you nothing and it keeps playing random samples until you give up and then gives you the stats. You could be wasting your time thinking you had found critical segments when you had not. The process as it is is onerous and pain in the neck. Adding this to it makes it very unpalatable to me anyway.

 

[Thomas savage]

What was the source, digital or analog? If digital, then CD is by far more transparent. It is so "good" that when we "butcher" it down to 256 kbps MP3/AAC, folks still can't tell.

If the source was analog, then a CD copy to me is still more transparent than applying playback analog technology to it. In the case of tape, it is pretty close but hiss and noise gets added. In the case of LP, every playback system sounds different than others due to variations in cartridge, pre-amp and the deck itself. So in that regard, it is not transparent at all. But of course could be more likeable.

In my older age , I have become very critical of LP artifacts. I hear them in almost all presentations through it regardless of price. Clicks and pops are super annoying too.

Yes my gracious Lord speaks a pure truth here

 

[TBone]

So if you were in trial #4 and you got that right, you would know. With the new version it tells you nothing and it keeps playing random samples until you give up and then gives you the stats.

I'd probably learn little past all that frustration/effort, unlikely to repeat. Thx for the heads-up.

The 2.0.2 plugin version is dated jan16.