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Debating my next 'audiophile' bookshelf speaker purchase.

Chromatischism

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Klipsch is overwhelmingly popular for HT, because they are cheap (really really cheap with sales), and they are very easy to drive (most have 95dB or more sensitivity).
You can subtract about 4 dB to get their real efficiency. Don't be fooled!

Op, we need to know, is this a nearfield setup?
 

Peluvius

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Hmmmmm yeah, i get what you're saying for sure, but it's like telling a car collector to 'just buy an enzo ferrari' and be 'done with it'..

Which genlecs do you recommend anyway?

The objective is the key. I wouldn't buy an Enzo Ferrari for its handling and speed for example, as my objective is to get the best handling, fastest car (speaker) I can.

I have a set of JBL L100's which I love but for reasons other than their ability to reproduce sound accurately.

I see your budget is around $500 so perhaps a set of Paradigm atoms would be worth a listen? The other big jump in sound quality can be had for very little if you are interested in exploring EQ for your listening space.
 

ROOSKIE

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Those cost $1100 AUD - LOL!
Op you need to clarify your budget or your posting is a time waste.
There are folks on here who make $1000 a day or even far more and folks who will struggle 6 months or more to save up $300 for a pair of speakers.

So what is the maximum budget?

The preference rating is dubious at best and yet prolly a place to start non the less.

If you budget allows for whatever Revel sells the M16 for in your country then buy those as already suggested. They measure well and beyond that, anecdotally, I have used them and tested them against more expensive speakers along with about 3 dozen less expensive models. The take away from all testing is that IMHO they are an absolute no brain'er here in the USA for under $1000. The only caveat is the bass extension is not super low and some other options have more low bass but you have a sub so that matters not at all.
 
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@NewbieAudiophileExpert well Q150s have same thing happening maybe a bit earlier (around 1100 Hz) it doesn't faid of axes with them. They fall lower at 200 Hz to about 3.4 Ohm's (Q3030i stays at 3.9~4). Q150 holds better in low bass up to 50 Hz but it compresses more you play it louder, has a high harmonic distortion on a 86 dB level and it's step response is rather slow. Interesting for me are sealed cabinet mesurument where it improves in various things but it loses the bass so with sub it's an interesting choice that way. To be fair it's a 5.5" vs 6.5" driver's in this case and Q3030i has a lot bigger cabinet.
In the end you need to listen to both and make your own judgement.
This index with preference rating as a key and from there to reading review and measurements. Pick speakers from menu.
You didn't tell us what's the amplifier you tend to use (or at least I didn't read it).
If it's beffy enough (100W or more) Elac DBR62 are a rather good choice (at least I think so) for some 500€ if you can find them in Australia for the price of course.
I'm using a Cambridge Audio Azur 550A, which is 60 watts per channel and currently running some Wharfedale Crystal 4.3s - so I'm curious to know if getting something like the 3030i or Q150/350 will be any better than what i already have.
The objective is the key. I wouldn't buy an Enzo Ferrari for its handling and speed for example, as my objective is to get the best handling, fastest car (speaker) I can.

I have a set of JBL L100's which I love but for reasons other than their ability to reproduce sound accurately.

I see your budget is around $500 so perhaps a set of Paradigm atoms would be worth a listen? The other big jump in sound quality can be had for very little if you are interested in exploring EQ for your listening space.
Have you used and listened to the Paradigm atoms?
Op you need to clarify your budget or your posting is a time waste.
There are folks on here who make $1000 a day or even far more and folks who will struggle 6 months or more to save up $300 for a pair of speakers.

So what is the maximum budget?

The preference rating is dubious at best and yet prolly a place to start non the less.

If you budget allows for whatever Revel sells the M16 for in your country then buy those as already suggested. They measure well and beyond that, anecdotally, I have used them and tested them against more expensive speakers along with about 3 dozen less expensive models. The take away from all testing is that IMHO they are an absolute no brain'er here in the USA for under $1000. The only caveat is the bass extension is not super low and some other options have more low bass but you have a sub so that matters not at all.
Maybe $400-700 AUD... 1000 is doable, but there would have to be a good reason - i'm also very open to the idea of getting a good pair of used/second-hand bookshelves.
 

Peluvius

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Have you used and listened to the Paradigm atoms?

I currently have a set of v4 and v5. The v4 is actually my pick if you can find a set. Remarkably good for remarkably little coin.
 
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GXAlan

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Sal1950

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Yeah but isn't 90% of the fun about buying and trying out different speakers?
Humm,
Hmmmmm yeah, i get what you're saying for sure, but it's like telling a car collector to 'just buy an enzo ferrari' and be 'done with it'..

Which genlecs do you recommend anyway?
But that's what we do here, measure and attempt to find the best performing products in each genre.
If you wanted to buy an extreme performance car that answer would be an excellent one.
If you wanted car to have fun with for a time, and then dump for for another toy, just pick any one that lights your fancy.

I don't get what you really want from our members if not to be pointed to maybe the top performing half dozen in your budget.?

Genelecs? If your interested in a powered, anything thats in your budget.
They don't do bad speakers.
 
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ROOSKIE

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I'm using a Cambridge Audio Azur 550A, which is 60 watts per channel and currently running some Wharfedale Crystal 4.3s - so I'm curious to know if getting something like the 3030i or Q150/350 will be any better than what i already have.

Have you used and listened to the Paradigm atoms?

Maybe $400-700 AUD... 1000 is doable, but there would have to be a good reason - i'm also very open to the idea of getting a good pair of used/second-hand bookshelves.
Alright that does put the Revel M16 out of your budget unless you find a great deal used or opned box.
They are about 1899 AUD a pair (which translates to about $1300USD) in Australia. Bummer as they are $990USD retail in the US but many dealers will deal for $600-700 or maybe even less for an opened box/b-stock.
They are really a taste of high end speaker that is aiming for neutrality with a slightly darker than vibrant tonality and superb in room dispersion characteristics.
Anyway so moving on.

No I have not heard the Atom's and based on how they have tested I personally would keep looking.

- Wharfedale 12.2s.
- Klipsch RP-500s or RP-600s.
- Kef Q150s or Q350s.
- Monitor Audio Bronze 100s.
- ELAC B6.2s.

The ones that i've considered the most are the KEFs, mostly due to their Uni-Q driver array - otherwise, the Wharfedale Diamonds might offer the best price : performance ratio.... and the bronze 100s seem to be quite cheap and offer everything that the 'silver' range does.

Will any of these speakers perform better than my Wharfedale Crystal 4.3s, or would i need to shop in a price category above these to notice a 'real' or even 'drastic' change(s) in performance?

I have never heard the Crystal 4.3's nor seen any quality measurements of them to get an idea of their performance.
Thus for someone like me (and most other folks) there is no way to know how the 4.3's sound and perform so advice is shooting in the dark.

That said even within the recommendations backed by testing or the Harman score, subjectivity is huge. So much depends on listening habits such as SPL, are you always in the sweet spot or are looking for background performance. Do you want a vibrant top end (no I don't mean bright, though you might want that as well) or is a darker top better for you. Tonality is subjective such as do you prefer extra bass or lean bass or a slightly forward midrange or maybe a little recessed mids range for someone sensitive to vocals or who prefers a less forward stage. Wide vs average vs narrow dispersion...it goes on and on. Many variables exist even when the list is made up of good speakers. Yes PEQ can affect this if you have a well designed speaker that takes well to EQ you can tailor several traits to taste but not everything.

For example I have yet to fall in love with a KEF speaker yet many other swear by them as their favorites. I preferred the Revel M16 to the KEF R3 and Q350 despite the M16 selling for less than half the R3's USA price.
I didn't care all that much for the ELAC DBR62 yet others are in love.

A looked quickly a 3 HIFI shops in your country. I don't envy the prices but oh well.
-Even though they didn't work well for me, I would start with the ELAC DBR62 at the top of your budget as many do love them and they measure pretty darn well.
-I would consider the Polk ES line and if going monitor then the Polk ES20 (signature elite es20)
-The KEF Q350 is pretty decent IMHO

Note I have not enjoyed the two monitor audio speakers I have tried the Bronze 100 and Silver 50.

I didn't see much else below $1000AUD a pair.

Make sure returns are allowed if they do that in Australia, it may turn out the Crystal's are all you need, or it may turn out they are not...
 

posvibes

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They are about 1899 AUD a pair (which translates to about $1300USD) in Australia. Bummer as they are $990USD retail in the US but many dealers will deal for $600-700 or maybe even less for an opened box/b-stock.
Also as I am in Oz, that is so depressing to read.
 

Chromatischism

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Ok, the next step down in price from the M16's: it's between the Arendal 1961 and Polk R100 (200 if you can afford them).

However I see you aren't able to add a subwoofer to your system with that integrated amp. I hate to say it but you probably won't be happy with the Arendal 1961 as it really needs a subwoofer. I think it's the better speaker vs the Polks, but the Polks will do a lot better without a sub. In fact, they both will benefit. The Arendal benefits from a sub because it doesn't extend much below 100 Hz, and the Polk R100 benefits from a sub because its bass output drops past 85 dB due to compression.
 

ZolaIII

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@NewbieAudiophileExpert hold the line! It seems your amplifier is/has a bit bright top end (but luckily has loudness normalization bass/treble). How exactly you are/are not satisfied with those Warfadale flor standers? Unfortunately there are no measurements of them (or at least I didn't find them). Do you or have you ever used measurement mics in conjunction with EQ? I think that's where you need to put your efforts to (and it doesn't cost you much). I don't think any medium sized two way speakers (5.5~6.5") will be a noticable improvement to three way flor stand one's if Warfadale didn't done something very wrong. From those little rewievs there are on Amazon for those it seems actually cabinet for those is rather well made (didn't save on Isolation material nor glue them much) which usually is a main problem with cheap flor stand ones.
I am not a fan of the poli mica cones (which is subjective) at all and those use those as bass drivers.
I would discard both KEF's you mentioned; Q150 won't be able to go very loud, Q350 ol do had a good preference score and can go louder (still not very loud) has a two z-wings and it's still a bit bright and cetera...
That would also discard Polk R200 even if you are willing to pay as much they cost as they are also a bit bright (bit bright and bit bright from both amp and speakers is bright).
I don't really know if your amp will be enough for DBR62 (you should try them if you can) which by the way can go very loud.
I also don't know if bottom end Q3030i can offer will be enough for you (and again they can go loud but not very, very loud).
That leads us to Reveal M16 (one way or another).
Anyway if I whose you I would start with getting a measurement mic, mesure what you are getting on listening spot and see what can be done (EQ and Equal loudness controls on the amp) with what you already have. And only then (and if you are not satisfied with what you can achieve with EQ) compare it with what you would get with any of mentioned ones based on calculated listening in room response (taking in consideration and position and angle you will be using them).
If you can not audition candidates (after you have done all mentioned) at least buy them from some places you can ship them back and get your money back if you don't like them (or simply it doesn't work out for you).
It sounds a bit complicated and probably is but I don't know a better way.
Best regards.
 
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Peluvius

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No I have not heard the Atom's and based on how they have tested I personally would keep looking.

the OP has a price sensitive approach. I would love your view on what speakers “test better” and can readily had on the Oz used market for AUD 300….?
 
OP
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NewbieAudiophileExpert

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For anybody enquiring about my speakers frequency response, these are the measurements from Joe n Tell on youtube (
) - he prefered them over the ELAC Debut F5.2.

FYI the lower woofer has its own ported enclosure, separate to the sealed, upper portion of the tower.

Screen Shot 2022-08-12 at 12.50.12 pm.png


Humm,

But that's what we do here, measure and attempt to find the best performing products in each genre.
If you wanted to buy an extreme performance car that answer would be an excellent one.
If you wanted car to have fun with for a time, and then dump for for another toy, just pick any one that lights your fancy.

I don't get what you really want from our members if not to be pointed to maybe the top performing half dozen in your budget.?

Genelecs? If your interested in a powered, anything thats in your budget.
They don't do bad speakers.
Hey there, thanks for your feedback, as per your enquiry into 'what i want' from the members here, i'd say nothing at all - it's an open forum and I'm just enjoy the process of speaker buying. :)
Alright that does put the Revel M16 out of your budget unless you find a great deal used or opned box.
They are about 1899 AUD a pair (which translates to about $1300USD) in Australia. Bummer as they are $990USD retail in the US but many dealers will deal for $600-700 or maybe even less for an opened box/b-stock.
They are really a taste of high end speaker that is aiming for neutrality with a slightly darker than vibrant tonality and superb in room dispersion characteristics.
Anyway so moving on.

No I have not heard the Atom's and based on how they have tested I personally would keep looking.



I have never heard the Crystal 4.3's nor seen any quality measurements of them to get an idea of their performance.
Thus for someone like me (and most other folks) there is no way to know how the 4.3's sound and perform so advice is shooting in the dark.

That said even within the recommendations backed by testing or the Harman score, subjectivity is huge. So much depends on listening habits such as SPL, are you always in the sweet spot or are looking for background performance. Do you want a vibrant top end (no I don't mean bright, though you might want that as well) or is a darker top better for you. Tonality is subjective such as do you prefer extra bass or lean bass or a slightly forward midrange or maybe a little recessed mids range for someone sensitive to vocals or who prefers a less forward stage. Wide vs average vs narrow dispersion...it goes on and on. Many variables exist even when the list is made up of good speakers. Yes PEQ can affect this if you have a well designed speaker that takes well to EQ you can tailor several traits to taste but not everything.

For example I have yet to fall in love with a KEF speaker yet many other swear by them as their favorites. I preferred the Revel M16 to the KEF R3 and Q350 despite the M16 selling for less than half the R3's USA price.
I didn't care all that much for the ELAC DBR62 yet others are in love.

A looked quickly a 3 HIFI shops in your country. I don't envy the prices but oh well.
-Even though they didn't work well for me, I would start with the ELAC DBR62 at the top of your budget as many do love them and they measure pretty darn well.
-I would consider the Polk ES line and if going monitor then the Polk ES20 (signature elite es20)
-The KEF Q350 is pretty decent IMHO

Note I have not enjoyed the two monitor audio speakers I have tried the Bronze 100 and Silver 50.

I didn't see much else below $1000AUD a pair.

Make sure returns are allowed if they do that in Australia, it may turn out the Crystal's are all you need, or it may turn out they are not...
Please see the diagram above for a measurement of the speaker's performance.

ELACS look OK - the DBR62s can be had for AUD $500-600 used... although i've noticed that there's also a three way speaker that might be a really good buy .... the Unify Reference UBR62 stands out actually..

@NewbieAudiophileExpert hold the line! It seems your amplifier is/has a bit bright top end (but luckily has loudness normalization bass/treble). How exactly you are/are not satisfied with those Warfadale flor standers? Unfortunately there are no measurements of them (or at least I didn't find them). Do you or have you ever used measurement mics in conjunction with EQ? I think that's where you need to put your efforts to (and it doesn't cost you much). I don't think any medium sized two way speakers (5.5~6.5") will be a noticable improvement to three way flor stand one's if Warfadale didn't done something very wrong. From those little rewievs there are on Amazon for those it seems actually cabinet for those is rather well made (didn't save on Isolation material nor glue them much) which usually is a main problem with cheap flor stand ones.
I am not a fan of the poli mica cones (which is subjective) at all and those use those as bass drivers.
I would discard both KEF's you mentioned; Q150 won't be able to go very loud, Q350 ol do had a good preference score and can go louder (still not very loud) has a two z-wings and it's still a bit bright and cetera...
That would also discard Polk R200 even if you are willing to pay as much they cost as they are also a bit bright (bit bright and bit bright from both amp and speakers is bright).
I don't really know if your amp will be enough for DBR62 (you should try them if you can) which by the way can go very loud.
I also don't know if bottom end Q3030i can offer will be enough for you (and again they can go loud but not very, very loud).
That leads us to Reveal M16 (one way or another).
Anyway if I whose you I would start with getting a measurement mic, mesure what you are getting on listening spot and see what can be done (EQ and Equal loudness controls on the amp) with what you already have. And only then (and if you are not satisfied with what you can achieve with EQ) compare it with what you would get with any of mentioned ones based on calculated listening in room response (taking in consideration and position and angle you will be using them).
If you can not audition candidates (after you have done all mentioned) at least buy them from some places you can ship them back and get your money back if you don't like them (or simply it doesn't work out for you).
It sounds a bit complicated and probably is but I don't know a better way.
Best regards.
Hey mate, that's a great post - my amp is too bright? Hmm that could be the case, but I just EQ with the Apple Music application and set it to the appropriate music type..

I also have the preouts connected to a subwoofer which has been adjusted to cross over at 50hz, so that it provides 'bass support', as I like to call it.

At this point in time, i have not used mics to adjust EQ - however, it is an avenue that i am willing to explore.

What would you recommend for EQ? Mic + REW?

the OP has a price sensitive approach. I would love your view on what speakers “test better” and can readily had on the Oz used market for AUD 300….?
Indeed, the prices here in Australia are ridiculous
 

ROOSKIE

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the OP has a price sensitive approach. I would love your view on what speakers “test better” and can readily had on the Oz used market for AUD 300….?
I already listed several speakers that I think the OP ought to consider based on a quick look at some Australian websites. That is the best I can do for now.

Op already has speakers and is not looking for a 1st set, rather a notable upgrade from what may be decent towers.
I seriously doubt the Atom's are a notable upgrade and they may not be any upgrade at all but rather a side grade or even a possible downgrade. I would pass based on the ASR testing alone. But that is me.

If the Op just wants to try something different then anything goes.
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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Passive bookshelf speakers are inherently inefficient and lack base extension. They will not "fill" a room paired with a monster sub. An 80 lb floorstander requires less "current." You cannot underestimate importance of mid-bass. I prefer 3 way floorstander. I wish Revel never designed 2.5 Concertas. Now JBL uses 2.5 for HDI series. All for the "thump" with a current limited AVR.
 
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NewbieAudiophileExpert

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I already listed several speakers that I think the OP ought to consider based on a quick look at some Australian websites. That is the best I can do for now.

Op already has speakers and is not looking for a 1st set, rather a notable upgrade from what may be decent towers.
I seriously doubt the Atom's are a notable upgrade and they may not be any upgrade at all but rather a side grade or even a possible downgrade. I would pass based on the ASR testing alone. But that is me.

If the Op just wants to try something different then anything goes.
That's just the thing, i'm worried that i get 'something' that's not even better than what I do have - my understanding is that the speakers that I have now are not as good as Diamonds (which MANY people would praise highly), but they are not that much 'worse' than them..

The KEFs are always something that sorta interests me due to the coaxial design, but it seems that perhaps ELAC Unifi UBR62s might be worth a listen - these go for $1200-1300 US and here they are $1600-1700 new... and they are praised on ASR based on measurement(s).
Passive bookshelf speakers are inherently inefficient and lack base extension. They will not "fill" a room paired with a monster sub. An 80 lb floorstander requires less "current." You cannot underestimate importance of mid-bass. I prefer 3 way floorstander. I wish Revel never designed 2.5 Concertas. Now JBL uses 2.5 for HDI series. All for the "thump" with a current limited AVR.
Hmmm, that's fair enough and i respect your opinion - I currently use 3 way floorstanders, but i wouldn't mind a good bookshelf and sub combo.
 

Peluvius

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I already listed several speakers that I think the OP ought to consider based on a quick look at some Australian websites. That is the best I can do for now.

Op already has speakers and is not looking for a 1st set, rather a notable upgrade from what may be decent towers.
I seriously doubt the Atom's are a notable upgrade and they may not be any upgrade at all but rather a side grade or even a possible downgrade. I would pass based on the ASR testing alone. But that is me.

If the Op just wants to try something different then anything goes.
I suspect you are referring to the v7 iteration of these speakers, this is the only test data I could find on the ASR site. I would not go for any of them after v5. There was a distinct drop in performance from v6, I understand largely driven by aggressive competitor pricing.

I do however agree these are not likely a noteable upgrade over the crystals although with a sub I would guess an improvement but understood the budget was around $500….
 

ZolaIII

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@NewbieAudiophileExpert I read in subjectiv review it's a bit bright (amplifier). If you feel that's a case just put the treble to - 2 on it. You can even use a smartphone app for beginners. As you mentioned Apple try with:
Put FFT to max allowed, Octave RTA to 1/6 and use logarithmic display.
Later consider getting a USB measurements mic like basic UMIK 1 that should be under 100$ AU to use for both response measurement and room correction software.
Basic point is to mesure what's coming at you and based on that try to EQ. Don't use gerne, auto or pre define EQ presets.
I settled down with JRiver on Windows as player and DSP platform.

Judging by the graph you presented for Crystal's they really aren't half bad and only thing you need to EQ is that bess drop around 220 Hz and eventually put tone control for bass also to - 2 on amplifier and that's it (-2 for bass and treble are for normal listening levels, when you crunch them up to very loud make it - 4 and when listening relatively quiet leave them at 0).
I really don't think two way mid size bookshelf will be any improvement.

EQ future based on response you are actually getting on your listening spot that you will mesure.
 
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