Debating Denon 3800h, 4700h, and Onkyo RZ50...thoughts?

[GabrielPhoto]

Ok so it comes down to those 3 receivers....
This is my current line of thinking for each of them.

Denon 3800h:
Possibility of Dirac....but is it ANY better than Audyssey that I am used to?
Selectable pre-amp mode so I can use my 7 channel amp (1.6v) and power Atmos with the AVR. That way I should be getting about 90dB SINAD
Then there is the 4 sub output also.
Tactile transducer option would be nice in the future.
Price wise I can get it cheaper than the other 2 (just need to wait until first week of December to receive it though)

Denon 4700h:
In FULL Preamp Mode I get the highest SINAD (does it even matter though?) at 1.6v
It is the only one that got a recommendation from AMIR.
Used price is about the same as the new 3800h for me.
Con is that to go full preamp, I will need to buy an extra 4 channel amp. Or deal with the 80dB SINAD at 1.6v in non preamp mode.

Onkyo RZ50:
Dirac already there...but is it any better? Looks more complicated and flexible but what about actual results??? There will be a learning curve.
SINAD looks to be around 95dB without needing a preamp mode at 1.6v thus I wont have to buy any extra amps like with the 4700h to get into the higher SINAD performance. Odd how this can be cleaner than the 3800h without a preamp mode.
Runs cooler than the other 2.
Cons are one single sub output...no Audyssery (con or pro? lol). The most expensive for me of the 3. Extra learning curve as I am used to Denon and Audyssey.


Extra info, I have a Monolith THX 365c 7x200 AMP.
7.1.4 setup
I have a MiniDSP that I am yet to learn and use buts is there. The 2x4HD
Only one input from my HTPC HDMI connection to my JVC Projector. Oh and one media box for 3D but hardly ever used.

 

[AdamG247]

One point to consider is that the Audyssey has the Audyeesy Eq App. I find the app very valuable for tweaking in the Auto Audyeesy Calibration results. Quite powerful tool for getting excellent results. Audyssey has come a long way and the App is a major bonus. Just food for thought.

iOS:

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

Android:

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app - Apps on Google Play

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Denon Marantz AV Receiver products

play.google.com

 

[GabrielPhoto]

One point to consider is that the Audyssey has the Audyeesy Eq App. I find the app very valuable for tweaking in the Auto Audyeesy Calibration results. Quite powerful tool for getting excellent results. Audyssey has come a long way and the App is a major bonus. Just food for thought.

iOS:

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

Android:

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app - Apps on Google Play

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Denon Marantz AV Receiver products

play.google.com

I do use the Audyssey with my Tablet. Just watching videos of Dirac it seems to have a LOT of flexibility and potential but of course, hard to tell how the actual results are. It seems a LOT of people on this forum lean towards Dirac ...at least that was my impression searching.

 

[AdamG247]

Or deal with the 80dB SINAD at 1.6v in non preamp mode.

In real terms of “can we really hear the difference?” I would not obsess about this SINAD number. I doubt most could tell the difference in a controlled blind. Your profile indicates you are in your early 40’s. Our hearing gets progressively worse as we age. Take an online hearing test and find out exactly what your hearing range is. You might be surprised if you can hear anything above 14-15khz. Let this be your real life guide.

This is a good one and you can export your hearing profile for import to Apple and other audio programs that will create a custom eq matched to your actual hearing profile.

‎Mimi Hearing Test

‎The Mimi Hearing Test is the easiest way to assess your hearing ability. This hearing test will give you understandable results in about 6 minutes. - Modern hearing assessment: Easy-to-use and in-depth testing of a wide range of frequencies. - Get instant results: We turn your auditory data...

apps.apple.com

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

[…] You might be surprised if you can hear anything above 14-15hz. Let this be your real life guide.

This is a good one and you can export your hearing profile for import to Apple and other audio programs that will create a custom eq matched to your actual hearing profile.

‎Mimi Hearing Test

‎The Mimi Hearing Test is the easiest way to assess your hearing ability. This hearing test will give you understandable results in about 6 minutes. - Modern hearing assessment: Easy-to-use and in-depth testing of a wide range of frequencies. - Get instant results: We turn your auditory data...

apps.apple.com

You meant 14-15KHz not Hz, right?

Edit:
Also, people keep saying old people cannot hear above certain high frequency threshold, but that’s not the whole story. When listening to complex audio, some higher frequencies are combined together or create new vibrations and the convoluted results fall into the lower thresholds. I might not use the right terms, but that’s the basic idea I read about it somewhere 20 years ago. I let people who studied this explain it. So, it’s critical to have a good low noise high fidelity full high frequencies, in case some of those come into lower frequencies.

 

[delta76]

If you buy a new x4700h now it's very likely it's an updated version with new DAC, not the one with AKM DAC Amir reviewed.
I don't think it matters that much, especially with your setup (home theatre) anyway. I was wondering about those three and went with x4700h because it was the best deal I've got. Should x3800h or RZ50 had the similar deal, I would buy them also.

Audyssey XT32 is very good. And I think adding a sub to your setup and independently managing it makes a big difference. AFAIK only x4700h and x3800h can do that, RZ is basically 2 mirrored subs.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Last update. After comparing both 3800h and rz50 side by side, the Onkyo surprisingly was the winner.
Got a great price from my dealer as well so that made it even sweeter lol
As a long time xt32 user here..I gotta say... Dirac is the real deal!

 

[ssekdad]

How did you company the 3800h and the RZ50? Did you get to do a live audio comparison? What were the key differences?

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

How did you compare the 3800h and the RZ50? Did you get to do a live audio comparison? What were the key differences?

Thank you - getting really frustrated at these internet pronouncements without a basic "why?" explanation, and what were said poster's priorities. Even if already posted, please summarize said priorities and findings.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Why bother having him explain his choice? “This is a scientific review site”, subjective head-to-head comparisons (opinions - basically “you like what like”) are demonstrably shunned as untrustworthy in this forum, because “someone else had a different experience”.

Offering up his thoughts to explain why he chose what he did, without providing measurements in his home to validate his preferences, will simply get ridiculed — especially considering there are measurements proving the RZ50 is a terrible/non-recommended option.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Thank you - getting really frustrated at these internet pronouncements without a basic "why?" explanation, and what were said poster's priorities. Even if already posted, please summarize said priorities and findings.

Frustrated? Then go buy both and test yourself. I already stated several key factors here and at avsforum. You already have the measurements for both here so if all you care about are measurements at levels so high where it really doesn't matter to humans then base your purchases on all the numbers you can find here.and be happy.
Measurements matter up to a point where it makes no difference to humans.
What really frustrates me is people that want others to make purchase decisions for themselves without making a minimum effort....proven by the following statement

"Even if already posted, please summarize said priorities and findings."

So sure even it already has been posted I want people to once again post it so I don't even have to bother looking for the comment...I like to keep my lazy ass glued to my comfy sofa eating cheese puffs....come on now

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Why bother having him explain his choice? “This is a scientific review site”, subjective head-to-head comparisons (opinions - basically “you like what like”) are demonstrably shunned as untrustworthy in this forum, because “someone else had a different experience”.

Offering up his thoughts to explain why he chose wdat he did, without providing measurements in his home to validate his preferences, will simply get ridiculed — especially considering there are measurements proving the RZ50 is a terrible/non-recommended option.

Terrible and not recommended if your ears are at superhuman levels and are bothered at levels that only sophisticated measurement tools can detect differences...for the rest of us, try both and pick the one you prefer. I was a Denon and Audyssey fanboy but not anymore after trying the rz50 even tbough I was able to get them for the same price (3800h and rz50).

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Frustrated? Then go buy both and test yourself. I already stated several key factors here and at avsforum. You already have the measurements for both here so if all you care about are measurements at levels so high where it really doesn't matter to humans then base your purchases on all the numbers you can find here.and be happy.
Measurements matter up to a point where it makes no difference to humans.
What really frustrates me is people that want others to make purchase decisions for themselves without making a minimum effort....proven by the following statement

"Even if already posted, please summarize said priorities and findings."

So sure even it already has been posted I want people to once again post it so I don't even have to bother looking for the comment...I like to keep my lazy ass glued to my comfy sofa eating cheese puffs....come on now

My commentary wasn't directed specifically at you, just the general choices people make without giving an explanation so I could compare your priorities to mine. My complaint wasn't meant as a personal attack, I was asking for more information. I agree with you on measurements not being everything, and listening tests aren't that reliable. Perhaps it's ease of operation, convenient features or maybe it just looks better? I don't care what the reasons are, I just thought it would be nice to summarize your reasons for choosing one over the other in said "decision" post. I've read your posts previously, just don't have a photographic memory and finding them (on two different sites) isn't as easy as you say - you know that.

 

[airmail]

You do realise that Denon is getting Dirac DLBC in a month right?

 

[GabrielPhoto]

You do realise that Denon is getting Dirac DLBC in a month right?

You do realize this thread started back in November, right? And we will see what and when it actually comes out.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

You do realise that Denon is getting Dirac DLBC in a month right?

D+M will have Dirac live, not DLBC, in a month. More or less. But you will have to pay for it.
Onkyo already have it, included in the avr price

 

[PNWShawn]

In late 2022 I needed to replace my 17-year-old Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, which is a great, THX certified, 130 WPC 7.1 ch AVR. I researched equivalent receivers from Marantz, Denon, Pioneer Elite, and Onkyo. I wanted the RZ50 but it wasn’t available at the time. I waited a few months and all prices went up $200-$300! So at first I bought the Pioneer Elite VSX LX-305 for $1,400 USD. Only 100 watts per channel and no pre-outs, so not quite as high spec as my old 35 lb Pioneer behemoth but has Dolby Vision, HDMI 2.1, and Dirac Live. Setting up Dirac was glitchy but once set up sounded great. It also has MCACC like my old Pioneer, which is also very good and simple to use. The overall sound quality of the LX-305 is excellent and the 4K video upconversion from all inputs is absolutely superb! The Pioneer setup menu is by far the easiest I’ve ever seen, and accessing all the apps and menus from the crappy little remote or from my iPhone is very intuitive. As good as it was, it was plagued by HDMI handshake issues and would frequently switch inputs from cable box to Roku from out of the blue. Also, I had to use four remotes because CEC interoperability just wasn’t there (although the lip sync function worked perfectly). I thought my unit was defective so I exchanged it for a new one and still had the input switching and remote problems. So I sent both units back to Crutchfield and they gave me a great deal on a Denon X4700H for $1,500 USD. Much better remote than the toy that came with the LX305, but still has some handshake issues (most of which were overcome with a Harmony universal remote). Also, the automatic lip sync function isn’t as good. Setup on the Denon was much more complicated than the LX-305, and operating apps and changing settings is a lot more complicated as well. On the Pioneer, switching to a streaming platform or switching audio output from speakers to Bluetooth headphones takes a couple button pushes on the remote or my phone. On the Denon it is an entire ordeal of wading through menus and the Bluetooth connection is not as reliable. Denon’s Audessey MultiEQ XT32 room correction is inferior to both Dirac and MCACC, although in Auro 3D mode the sound quality is awesome. (The X3700H doesn’t have Auro 3D but I think the X3800H does.) Sadly, 4K Video upconversion on the X4700H is just not very good, although when using a 4K DolbyVision source like Roku Ultra, the picture on my LG OLED is gorgeous. I will say that in Direct mode, music and movie soundtracks sound great on the Denon, and it has more than enough power, but I’m seriously considering selling it and getting an Integra DRX 3.4 or an Onkyo RZ50.

 

[peng]

D+M will have Dirac live, not DLBC, in a month. More or less. But you will have to pay for it.
Onkyo already have it, included in the avr price

Are you sure the Onkyo has DLBC included, or even upgradable?

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Are you sure the Onkyo has DLBC included, or even upgradable?

I wrote that Onkyo doesn't have it.
If it is upgradable, I don't know. But I think it'll interess not only who need it, but who want to spend a lot of money to have it

 

[peng]

I wrote that Onkyo doesn't have it.
If it is upgradable, I don't know. But I think it'll interess not only who need it, but who want to spend a lot of money to have it

Okay, just want to be sure... Without DLBC, imo, there isn't much reasons to bother with DL, because XT32 SubEQ HT can do a good job with the $20 app and the free Ratbuddyssey.