Dear experts,Which plan offers the best sound quality

[ABC666]

Nice, they have a dedicated dip!

How good they sound? I was interested on Kali 3 way monitors but finally got the Genelecs based on Amir’s measurements and also more compact.

But I red many good opinions about Kali In 8, too big for my little room

I just made a sound today and I'm not very professional, but I will share the listening experience of the SMSL DO100 Pro and Wiim Pro Plus connected to the in8

 

[Miguelón]

I just made a sound today and I'm not very professional, but I will share the listening experience of the SMSL DO100 Pro and Wiim Pro Plus connected to the in8

Me neither, just audiophile but learning here thanks to the expert members. Is the good thing of ASR, not all the answers are comprehensible but there are a lot of articles to introduce electronic elements, or room acoustics, distortion and noise…

Changed a lot my mind about audio, less influenced by marketing know.

Hope you will enjoy and learn here!

 

[ABC666]

Regarding streaming: I suggest using a device allowing Spotify Connect or Tidal Connect (or even Roon, if you are using that).

This way your mobile phone just serves as a controller for the streaming software - the audio is directly retrieved by the streamer. Should be ideally transparent, I.e. without any losses.

I am personally using a WiiM mini with Tidal connect. Perfect sound, horrible interface, as Tidal Connect does not synchronize any more after a few songs...

I personally would not use any Bluetooth music transmission as there may be resampling with unknown quality done by your mobile phone and Bluetooth codec compression artifacts.

Thank you very much. I will compare the sound quality differences between Wiim and SMSL in Wi-Fi and BT transmission. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Miguelón]

Thank you very much. I will compare the sound quality differences between Wiim and SMSL in Wi-Fi and BT transmission. Do you have any suggestions?

Is quite subjective, personally I prefer loseless Wifi of the WiiM and love the app on the phone.

If you can afford 150€ more on your stream-DAC combo you can go to the incoming WiiM Ultra that has Bluetooth 5.3 apart from wifi. Then you have the best of two worlds.

At this date it doesn’t support Air Play because they are under certification process, it will came later on the year. But you can manage your streaming service by the WiiM app, which you can test on your device.

 

[Raxumit]

At this date [the Wiim Ultra] doesn’t support Air Play because they are under certification process, it will came later on the year. But you can manage your streaming service by the WiiM app, which you can test on your device.

This may not be true.

 

[Miguelón]

This may not be true.

I didn’t know that: nevertheless this only limits the use of Apple Music loseless. Other platforms are supported natively on streaming.

I personally don’t like Apple Music because poor playlists (limited to those created by Apple) but the OP hasn’t mentioned any preferences.

If Apple Music is his main source, then my vote goes to WiiM Pro Plus and a BT receiver (they are cheap relatively)

 

[dominikz]

I bought SMSL DO100 Pro and Wiim Pro Plus, and connected them via WIFI or Bluetooth. How can I measure the sound quality difference between the two very well

The best way to compare sound quality between any two devices is to setup a level-matched (preferably blind) test. This is unfortunately not trivial to do perfectly, but it is absolutely worth learning how to do it!
Our host @amirm did a nice video on this a while ago which is IMHO worth watching: "Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong!".

First thing to do would be to try and find a way to switch between the two devices quickly. Auditory memory is short (few seconds) and unreliable, so we really want to keep switching times as fast as possible. Ideally you would play the same track via both devices and use some kind of switching device that lets you instantly switch to one or the other.

Next thing to do would be to level-match the outputs of the SMSL and WiiM. Note that level differences as small as just 0,1dB have been known to skew listening tests results, so you really want to get the playback levels to be as close to identical as possible.

It is important to note that electrical level matching is more precise that acoustical level matching, and as I said above, we need the levels to be very close for a meaningful test. That means that measuring sound levels with a phone SPL app likely won't be precise enough (but it is probably better than nothing).
You can do electrical level matching by playing an e.g. 200Hz sine tone through either device, and measuring its output with a digital multimeter. Then tweak the level of either device until they are as close as possible.
As an alternative to a digital multimeter you can also use your PC soundcard input with the free Room EQ Wizard (REW) RTA analyzer tool. As long as you match levels of both devices to <0,1dB you are good! We can use a PC audio input for this purpose because we don't need a calibrated device to match levels; we only need the relative levels to be as close to identical as possible. REW also has the signal generator tool which you can use to generate the 200Hz test tone you will use to match levels.

If you didn't use similar tools before, it might take time to learn how to use REW correctly, though - audio measurements are not trivial to do correctly and generally come with a steep learning curve!

Once you have a way to instantly switch devices, and you got the playback levels close enough, you can try to make the listening test more reliable by doing it blind - which means that someone else does the switching so you don't know which device is playing at any time. You would need to repeat the test at least 10 times and be able to correctly guess which device is playing at least 9 times to get some statistical validity.

Doing a test in this way eliminates most common sources of bias which means you are comparing just how the two devices actually sound. That will help you determine if there is any meaningful difference in perceived sound quality between the two methods.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Miguelón]

The best way to compare sound quality between any two devices is to setup a level-matched (preferably blind) test. This is unfortunately not trivial to do perfectly, but it is absolutely worth learning how to do it!
Our host @amirm did a nice video on this a while ago which is IMHO worth watching: "Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong!".

First thing to do would be to try and find a way to switch between the two devices quickly. Auditory memory is short (few seconds) and unreliable, so we really want to keep switching times as fast as possible. Ideally you would play the same track via both devices and use some kind of switching device that lets you instantly switch to one or the other.

Next thing to do would be to level-match the outputs of the SMSL and WiiM. Note that level differences as small as just 0,1dB have been known to skew listening tests results, so you really want to get the playback levels to be as close to identical as possible.

It is important to note that electrical level matching is more precise that acoustical level matching, and as I said above, we need the levels to be very close for a meaningful test. That means that measuring sound levels with a phone SPL app likely won't be precise enough (but it is probably better than nothing).
You can do electrical level matching by playing an e.g. 200Hz sine tone through either device, and measuring its output with a digital multimeter. Then tweak the level of either device until they are as close as possible.
As an alternative to a digital multimeter you can also use your PC soundcard input with the free Room EQ Wizard (REW) RTA analyzer tool. As long as you match levels of both devices to <0,1dB you are good! We can use a PC audio input for this purpose because we don't need a calibrated device to match levels; we only need the relative levels to be as close to identical as possible. REW also has the signal generator tool which you can use to generate the 200Hz test tone you will use to match levels.

If you didn't use similar tools before, it might take time to learn how to use REW correctly, though - audio measurements are not trivial to do correctly and generally come with a steep learning curve!

Once you have a way to instantly switch devices, and you got the playback levels close enough, you can try to make the listening test more reliable by doing it blind - which means that someone else does the switching so you don't know which device is playing at any time. You would need to repeat the test at least 10 times and be able to correctly guess which device is playing at least 9 times to get some statistical validity.

Doing a test in this way eliminates most common sources of bias which means you are comparing just how the two devices actually sound. That will help you determine if there is any meaningful difference in perceived sound quality between the two methods.

Good luck and have fun!

You don’t need a blind test: bluetooth is not transparent on the iPhone so all differences goes to the WiiM.

WiiM Pro Plus and SMSL give DAC audibly transparency so this part is equal.

Wireless non transparent bluetooth + transparent DA conversion is inferior to wireless transparency + transparent DA conversion. Work done!

The only variable that remains is volume: WiiM has weaker signal because RCA unbalanced outputs than SMSL, so you can’t reach same SPL on studio monitors without increasing gain. As Kali is reasonably linear, this will not be an issue but the test to do has more on volume than on transparency (which is only preserved wirelessly by WiiM). Most of studio monitors are designed to reach full volume on XLR 4 volts balanced connexions, in my opinion OP should simply test its favorite songs (specially high SPL ones) and listen if he find distortion.

Blind test, REW using etc. requires a learning process that can overcome the 14 days usual trial period and give more confusion.

 

[ABC666]

The best way to compare sound quality between any two devices is to setup a level-matched (preferably blind) test. This is unfortunately not trivial to do perfectly, but it is absolutely worth learning how to do it!
Our host @amirm did a nice video on this a while ago which is IMHO worth watching: "Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong!".

First thing to do would be to try and find a way to switch between the two devices quickly. Auditory memory is short (few seconds) and unreliable, so we really want to keep switching times as fast as possible. Ideally you would play the same track via both devices and use some kind of switching device that lets you instantly switch to one or the other.

Next thing to do would be to level-match the outputs of the SMSL and WiiM. Note that level differences as small as just 0,1dB have been known to skew listening tests results, so you really want to get the playback levels to be as close to identical as possible.

It is important to note that electrical level matching is more precise that acoustical level matching, and as I said above, we need the levels to be very close for a meaningful test. That means that measuring sound levels with a phone SPL app likely won't be precise enough (but it is probably better than nothing).
You can do electrical level matching by playing an e.g. 200Hz sine tone through either device, and measuring its output with a digital multimeter. Then tweak the level of either device until they are as close as possible.
As an alternative to a digital multimeter you can also use your PC soundcard input with the free Room EQ Wizard (REW) RTA analyzer tool. As long as you match levels of both devices to <0,1dB you are good! We can use a PC audio input for this purpose because we don't need a calibrated device to match levels; we only need the relative levels to be as close to identical as possible. REW also has the signal generator tool which you can use to generate the 200Hz test tone you will use to match levels.

If you didn't use similar tools before, it might take time to learn how to use REW correctly, though - audio measurements are not trivial to do correctly and generally come with a steep learning curve!

Once you have a way to instantly switch devices, and you got the playback levels close enough, you can try to make the listening test more reliable by doing it blind - which means that someone else does the switching so you don't know which device is playing at any time. You would need to repeat the test at least 10 times and be able to correctly guess which device is playing at least 9 times to get some statistical validity.

Doing a test in this way eliminates most common sources of bias which means you are comparing just how the two devices actually sound. That will help you determine if there is any meaningful difference in perceived sound quality between the two methods.

Good luck and have fun!

This is indeed a good method for blind listening and worth learning. I will study it carefully. Thank you very much, expert.

 

[dominikz]

WiiM Pro Plus and SMSL give DAC audibly transparency so this part is equal.

I agree.

Wireless non transparent bluetooth + transparent DA conversion is inferior to wireless transparency + transparent DA conversion. Work done!

This is technically correct, but the lossy compression of BT might not be an audible issue to the OP - and the only way to test that is with a controlled listening test.

The only variable that remains is volume: WiiM has weaker signal because RCA unbalanced outputs than SMSL, so you can’t reach same SPL on studio monitors without increasing gain. As Kali is reasonably linear, this will not be an issue but the test to do has more on volume than on transparency (which is only preserved wirelessly by WiiM). Most of studio monitors are designed to reach full volume on XLR 4 volts balanced connexions, in my opinion OP should simply test its favorite songs (specially high SPL ones) and listen if he find distortion.

This can be done as an informal test, but the result will unfortunately be unreliable. Volume differences have unfortunately been demonstrated to have a significant impact on perceived sound quality. The issue with small level differences is that they are unfortunately usually not perceived as a simple volume difference, but as a sound quality difference.

Blind test, REW using etc. requires a learning process that can overcome the 14 days usual trial period and give more confusion.

This is absolutely a valid comment, and I fully agree. However OP asked how to best compare the devices for sound quality differences, and as far as I know there is no better way than a controlled listening test.

If I was choosing between these two devices, personally I wouldn't have any concerns on sound quality with either, because both appear to measure well. My decision in this case would be driven by the feature set, connectivity, ease of use and how seamlessly it integrates with the rest of my devices.

 

[Miguelón]

I agree.

This is technically correct, but the lossy compression of BT might not be an audible issue to the OP - and the only way to test that is with a controlled listening test.

This can be done as an informal test, but the result will unfortunately be unreliable. Volume differences have unfortunately been demonstrated to have a significant impact on perceived sound quality. The issue with small level differences is that they are unfortunately usually not perceived as a simple volume difference, but as a sound quality difference.

This is absolutely a valid comment, and I fully agree. However OP asked how to best compare the devices for sound quality differences, and as far as I know there is no better way than a controlled listening test.

If I was choosing between these two devices, personally I wouldn't have any concerns on sound quality with either, because both appear to measure well. My decision in this case would be driven by the feature set, connectivity, ease of use and how seamlessly it integrates with the rest of my devices.

Also I add WiiM app is very fun: it integrates a lot of radio stations, is Roon Ready, PEQ easy to use with 10 parameters. Lots of enjoyment!

Post edited: as a beginner I think is a relatively comprehensive way to do little experiments with PEQ and mics to room corrections without headaches