Dealers leaving Naim

[Pearson1977]

Very sad, but it always happens when a capital fund takes over the operation. Unfortunately, this is probably the future of hifi

 

[Doodski]

Sigh* The guy is slow as molasses and is boring too. Can you please give us a bullet point rundown of what this is about? If it is about buying up companies with investment goals then it is happening in Canada too. Investment groups are buying up rental properties and boosting the rents, buying up businesses and then gouging customers etc.

 

[restorer-john]

I can't sit through 20 minutes of that guy.

Cut to the chase.

 

[Doodski]

@restorer-john I apologize for the mess the other day. Should have never happened but I got my back up and was not prepared for that stuff But yes, sorry Dood for the mess.

 

[GXAlan]

One of the rules is to summarize the video if you post a video. @Pearson1977 It will get deleted or edited without a short summary

I think I have read that Naim is stingier with dealer demos. If a customer wants to buy something expensive, a dealer used to be able to request a loaner unit to show it. Now I read that the dealer needs to buy it first…

Private equity did a great job with McIntosh, Luxman, Denon&Marantz (before it went to Sound United) and so it’s not fair to say that PE ruins everything. But at least with McIntosh and Luxman, there is a brand that goes beyond sound quality. As long as the gear is decent or audibly transparent, then the ergonomics and aesthetics play into the sales. The golden age of D&M (when they also had McIntosh) is when they brought room correction to the masses…

 

[Mart68]

Sigh* The guy is slow as molasses and is boring too. Can you please give us a bullet point rundown of what this is about? If it is about buying up companies with investment goals then it is happening in Canada too. Investment groups are buying up rental properties and boosting the rents, buying up businesses and then gouging customers etc.

Summary:

Naim dealer of 39 years says he has stopped carrying Naim as they can't order new stock and have trouble getting existing equipment serviced and repaired.

Says Naim now more interested in selling through mail order houses not dealers

He previously decided to stop selling Focal speakers so thinks this may have something to do with it.

Naim/Focal now owned by large investment group and Naim is not the company that it used to be years ago when owned by J.V

 

[Doodski]

Summary:

Naim dealer of 39 years says he has stopped carrying Naim as they can't order new stock and have trouble getting existing equipment serviced and repaired.

Says Naim now more interested in selling through mail order houses not dealers

He previously decided to stop selling Focal speakers so thinks this may have something to do with it.

Naim/Focal now owned by large investment group and Naim is not the company that it used to be years ago when owned by J.V

I see. Thank you for the rundown. I appreciate that very much. That seems like a cluster mess to me. Naim enters into a agreement with buyers that Naim will provide warranty service on new product. Legally they cannot escape that agreement. So that's the first error for the new Naim company. The second error is breaking a sales and service agreement with a retailer (If they actually did.) The agreement has a start and stop date so they are supposed to act upon that agreement. I feel sorry for the retailer but I'm guessing that there is something he is not telling us.

 

[Mart68]

I see. Thank you for the rundown. I appreciate that very much. That seems like a cluster mess to me. Naim enters into a agreement with buyers that Naim will provide warranty service on new product. Legally they cannot escape that agreement. So that's the first error for the new Naim company. The second error is breaking a sales and service agreement with a retailer (If they actually did.) The agreement has a start and stop date so they are supposed to act upon that agreement. I feel sorry for the retailer but I'm guessing that there is something he is not telling us.

Quite possibly. He's clearly a big fan of Naim for decades, but the world has changed in 40 years.

I'd guess that Naim's current owners have developed a strategy they believe will succeed in the current environment. Sticking to what used to work might actually result in declining sales and profits.

Maybe they are wrong about that, only time will tell.

Personally I've always thought it was overpriced for what it is and, post 'Chrome Bumper' era, the styling is hideous. But that's subjective.

 

[Doodski]

Quite possibly. He's clearly a big fan of Naim for decades, but the world has changed in 40 years.

I'd guess that Naim's current owners have developed a strategy they believe will succeed in the current environment. Sticking to what used to work might actually result in declining sales and profits.

Maybe they are wrong about that, only time will tell.

Personally I've always thought it was overpriced for what it is and, post 'Chrome Bumper' era, the styling is hideous. But that's subjective.

I've seen the inside of a couple of pieces of Naim gear and it was very simple. Maybe some people think that's better I don't know.

 

[Jimbob54]

@Pearson1977 as noted by @GXAlan in post 5 we don't like posting of and links to YouTube vids without a summary and why it might be of interest to the membership. See @Mart68 summary in post 6 as an example. Thanks

 

[Mart68]

I've seen the inside of a couple of pieces of Naim gear and it was very simple. Maybe some people think that's better I don't know.

Simplicity was inherent to the whole UK 'Flat Earth' philosophy at the time, the theory (or marketing angle) being that every additional component degrades the sound.

So back then it was a clear alternative to complex Japanese equipment with every bell and whistle.

My own theory is that a lot of that budget Japanese equipment of the late 1970s on skimped on the power supplies (i,e the expensive bit) and the Naim power amps handled tough loads better and so sounded better with many loudspeakers. But this was ascribed to the magic of the circuit, the genius of the designer, and the lack of superfluous features.

Add the exclusivity of high price, and you're off to the races.

 

[Purité Audio]

But they could be ‘improved’ by buying multiple power supplies what a crock.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

But they could be ‘improved’ by buying multiple power supplies what a crock.
Keith

Which were just a traffo and a couple of capacitors in an otherwise empty case, but which cost thousands. Yes, it got silly. Best not to mention their loudspeakers...

 

[DSJR]

Summary:

Naim dealer of 39 years says he has stopped carrying Naim as they can't order new stock and have trouble getting existing equipment serviced and repaired.

Says Naim now more interested in selling through mail order houses not dealers

He previously decided to stop selling Focal speakers so thinks this may have something to do with it.

Naim/Focal now owned by large investment group and Naim is not the company that it used to be years ago when owned by J.V

Too bloomin' right it isn't the same company (not as smug and self-satisfied today I feel, but very much more commercially minded as a dealer pal and colleague of old was treated the same way) - and if you fully support the brand it can work both ways.. Our local audio salon is hugely invested in Naim and has genuinely sold a few Statement amp confections (preamps first, the power amps come later on I gather). They don't seem to have supply issues and don't stock much Focal (Dynaudio is their speaker range of choice still, I gather).

Makers 'with attitude' and a full range they want stocked and promoted, are keen to the extreme to want full dealer support. No space for wishy washy cherry-pickers. When in the throes of the 'terrible twosome' in the 80's (Naim and Linn), we weren't able to get many far eastern agencies because they wanted all their products stocked, not just the well reviewed ones, which ruled out Matsushita/Technics, JVC and Kenwood (which were still making good stuff at the top of their range I recall) and eventually Yamaha and Sony, although we did have some mid 80's products from these companies (apparently, just plugging in a JVC CD player in the same room and mains circuit as a top Naim/Linn based system 'degraded the sound' due to mains interference (I'll park that one there).

Naim's products are also way different and measurably better than they once were in fairness (according to the few Stereophile and 1980s HiFi Choice tests I have), but prices are madness now, deliberately so, increasing every year (in the past on April 1st...) at least in line with inflation, but it still sells well I believe.

Thank gawd for ASR and exposure to better value-for-money products, many/most of which can last well.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

There were some enormous price reductions on Naim and Focal from the distributor in Australia last year.

There’s a long thread about it here

Get your Naim & Focal now - huge discounts...

Interesting to see that Addicted to Audio have halved the price of the current model Focal Utopia from $6,999 to $3,499. https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/focal-utopia-v2-reference-high-end-dynamic-headphones

www.stereonet.com

 

[Scytales]

My own theory is that a lot of that budget Japanese equipment of the late 1970s on skimped on the power supplies (i,e the expensive bit) and the Naim power amps handled tough loads better and so sounded better with many loudspeakers.

Objectively speaking, when German audio magazine labs did measured maximum output voltage of some old Naim amps on reactive loads, they often found that some amps cannot cop with more than +/- 40° or even +/- 20° phase angle even with moderate 4 ohms nominal loads.

Here is an example of power output measurement taken by the lab of Stereoplay with a variable amplitude 60 Hz signal, the second column on each nominal loads is a measurement taken with +60° phase angle :

Thus, the fact that old Naim power amps handled tough loads better remains to be proven.

Newer Naim amps generally behave much better on reactive loads as far as I can tell from measurements of the same kind.

 

[Mart68]

Objectively speaking, when German audio magazine labs did measured maximum output voltage of some old Naim amps on reactive loads, they often found that some amps cannot cop with more than +/- 40° or even +/- 20° phase angle even with moderate 4 ohms nominal loads.

Thus, the fact that old Naim power amps handled tough loads better remains to be proven.

Newer Naim amps generally behave much better on reactive loads as far as I can tell from measurements of the same kind.

To be clear, I think Naim were, and still are, sub-optimal in that regard, which is why I personally favour Krell (S/H prices being roughly similar).

But they were still better at it than much of the competition at the time.

The world has moved on in any case now and the big Class D amps will do that job for a lot less money.

 

[Scytales]

The measurements I've seen imply instead that much of the competition at the time performed better on complex reactive loads than most Naim amps.

 

[Mart68]

The measurements I've seen imply instead that much of the competition at the time performed better on complex reactive loads than most Naim amps.

Examples?

I don't know about the markets elsewhere but in the UK the divide was very much between Naim plus a handful of other home-grown 'hair-shirt' companies, and the big Japanese players like Sony, Technics, JVC.

 

[rank]

For the price or even much less, there are better products in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper equipment, no discussion.