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dCS Varèse

is it possible that some aspects of sound 'quality' cannot be measured? For example soundstage - a single measurement with a microphone at the listening position cannot relay the depth or width of the soundstage in the recording or coming from the equipment and speakers. Different DACs as far as i know presents sound stage differently. There could be other elements. Not all aspects of human hearing can be measured and shown on a graph.
Considering that basic technical measuring systems (microphones) offer more resolution than any human being can perceive, and the loudspeaker actually being the weak link in the chain, along with the fact that DACs are a solved problem, it’s surprisingly unsurprising that DCS is selling an ugly pile of useless, over-engineered, crazily expensive boxes.
 
is it possible that some aspects of sound 'quality' cannot be measured? For example soundstage - a single measurement with a microphone at the listening position cannot relay the depth or width of the soundstage in the recording or coming from the equipment and speakers. Different DACs as far as i know presents sound stage differently. There could be other elements. Not all aspects of human hearing can be measured and shown on a graph.
You are making the mistake of conflating electronic measurements with acoustic measurements. If our ears heard RF signals that might be a different question, but at audio frequencies, there are no 3dimensional fields we need to concern ourself with, it is a question of a languidly (in electronics terms anyway) wiggling voltage across two pins. If something of audible interest cannot be measured relatively straightforwardly with modern instrumentation, no one has made a convincing proposal for what this could be in the decades I’ve been reading such discussions. There is of course the question of what kind of small measured differences could still be discerned in a statistically meaningful way, but we're dealing with absolute marginalia here, not the day-and-night differences people wax lyrical about in subjective DAC reviews and which presumably motivate them to drop new-car money on audio converters. There’s simply nowhere for a significant difference to hide. If perhaps you're a musician with some interest in home recording, think about what kind of DSP you'd have to add to alter "soundstage" purely in the signal domain, but without dramatically changing the waveform in a trivially measurable way - personally, I'm at a loss. With DACs you’re not even dealing with the vagaries of difficult loudspeaker loads - they really have pretty simple job.

What we cannot measure are the parts of hearing that happen in your head - which is unfortunately what makes most of the perceived difference, and need not have anything to do with the actual output of the device, as anyone who’s experienced the rather humbling phenomenon of hearing a seemingly clear difference then finding they are just randomly guessing at the end of some number of trials of a blind ABX test can tell you. Human hearing is not an adequate tool to gauge audibility of differences between DACs without rigorous controls to ensure the sound is the only thing you can go on.
 
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is it possible that some aspects of sound 'quality' cannot be measured? For example soundstage - a single measurement with a microphone at the listening position cannot relay the depth or width of the soundstage in the recording or coming from the equipment and speakers. Different DACs as far as i know presents sound stage differently. There could be other elements. Not all aspects of human hearing can be measured and shown on a graph.
No it isn’t
 
Topping's entry DAC is $100. Their top of the line DAC sells for $2000. Topping say their more expensive DAC sounds better than their cheapest one. Snake oil?
Yes, or at best disingenuous.
Keith
 
Couple these 5 boxes with a 6 box phasemation phone stage, a 3 box vacuum turntable, a pre amp and mono locks with external psus and you have a nice 19 box setup
 
Welcome to an audiophile hoarder's den
 
What about a preamp? Can a preamp impact soundstage?
The thing with a preamp is it is easy to measure precisely what it does to the signal.
It has input sockets and output sockets. We can measure the amplitude, frequency and phase of the electrical signal at both points - and there is nothing else - so can precisely determine what the effect of the preamp is.
If it does not change these 3 parameters outside the audible range then it can not be influencing the sound.

OTOH I bet all of us who have listened to music on HiFi for a few decades have experienced the influence of moving furniture in the room, or the large influence of loudspeaker and listener position in the room on things like perceived soundstage.
 
What about a preamp? Can a preamp impact soundstage?
In general simple electronics don’t do that . But at ASR we seems to assume a sane design of said electronics :)

If you have a frequency response deviation very poor channel separation and some tubes that are microphonic ( behaves almost like a reverb ).
I bet something could happen to the sound stage .

The lack of measurement of ”sound stage” is mostly because it lacks useful definition, like measuring happiness or something.
And it’s very dependent on the recording and your home acoustics and speakers in a way that’s hard to disentangle?

The question is what ” sound stage ” the one the recording engineer made is also an artificial construct on his speakers.

And many stereo speaker combinations seems to produce a large and wide soundstage regardless if there is one in the recording or not ?
So it’s a part of an artificial illusion too , very pleasing , but hard to define
 
What about a preamp? Can a preamp impact soundstage?
Not if it is properly designed. Where properly means "even just barely competent"

Soundstage has nothing to do with (properly designed) electronics. It is a feature of speakers and room.
 
All hearing happens in your head.
Perception happens in our heads, our ears hear.

Perception is made up from the information our ears receive, and a lot of other stuff totally unrelated to the sound waves. Possibly as much as fifty percent of it.

This is why blind testing is used, to reduce that 'other stuff' to a minimum.
 
That’s true, but if you compared the ‘Varese’ with an inexpensive but properly engineered dac unsighted ( and level-matched if necessary)you would detect no difference.
Keith
 
That’s true, but if you compared the ‘Varese’ with an inexpensive but properly engineered dac unsighted ( and level-matched if necessary)you would detect no difference.
Keith
Likely yes but the Varese has multiple filter options, one of which (F5) starts rolling off around 4Khz and is 1.5dB down at 20Khz.

It's not inconceivable that would be audible. It also has some headroom for intersample overs which not all DACs have. Whilst these effects will be miniscule they could be just enough for at least some people to differentiate in a blind test, with certain programme material.

Otherwise I can't see how it can be any different to any other competent DAC at any price point.
 
Well yes but £400k is a lot for a simple EQ filter that are included with every contemporary well designed dac.
Personally I find it all rather sad that a company that started as measurement led and offered really innovative design are reduced to this.
Jewellery for the gullible, rich and gullible.
Keith
 
Well yes but £400k is a lot for a simple EQ filter that are included with every contemporary well designed dac.
Personally I find it all rather sad that a company that started as measurement led and offered really innovative design are reduced to this.
Jewellery for the gullible, rich and gullible.
Keith
I don't disagree - but the device does measure superbly well and if you have unlimited amounts of money there's no obstacle to ownership. From that point of view you might as well have the Varese instead of a Topping E30.

I mean how many are they hoping to sell? Half a dozen a year? They do have cheaper offerings, and being a UK company it's good for the balance of payments as likely they will almost all get sold to overseas buyers. Crack on DCS, I say!
 
I don't disagree - but the device does measure superbly well and if you have unlimited amounts of money there's no obstacle to ownership. From that point of view you might as well have the Varese instead of a Topping E30.

I mean how many are they hoping to sell? Half a dozen a year? They do have cheaper offerings, and being a UK company it's good for the balance of payments as likely they will almost all get sold to overseas buyers. Crack on DCS, I say!
Yes… but somewhere done the line someone gets told a lie, because surely no-one would pay £400k unless they were told and believed it actually sounded better than any other properly designed dac.
If the retailer actually believes its better then they are ant best incompetent because they have never performed a simple unsighted comparison, or they know its no different and simply lie.
Keith
 
Well there you have it. All hearing happens in your head. The science on this does not cater for reality and no microphone or measuring device can accurately capture and deal with soundstage or room reflections the way our brains do
Indeed, but what the science can precisely tell you is whether it is possible for the electronics to influence the sound which with normally engineered electronics is no.

With eccentrically designed electronics maybe the sound is altered but we can measure that to a higher degree of accuracy than ears, and it is because the electronics isn't working properly.

What we can't measure is the placebo effect - which is very powerful, particularly people susceptible to believing a reassuringly expensive capacitor, for example, will improve the sound. I wonder why it is never a delightfully inexpensive component that works best to the placebo susceptible...

We can't accurately enough measure the sound at the listening position to consistently predict the change in stereo image created either by moving soft or hard furniture.

We can measure the substantial change in sound at the listening position, either by moving the speakers in the room or the chair you sit in, but not, afaik, predict from those measurements the precise influence on the sound stage that causes.
 
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