dCS Varèse

[Thighsofsteel]

Exactly - although they are careful not to make any absolute or verifiable claims. Ironically, they don't need to since the reviewers and end users will do that.

End users especially can be almost guaranteed to make claims like 'Obvious step up', 'Night and day', 'Improvements were immediately obvious', 'Even the wife noticed the difference', and other amusing hyperbole.

All the manufacturer ads really need to do is show a photo, the price, and where to buy it. The marketing comes later for free and is outside the purview of any regulatory bodies.

I think there needs to be a large group of “wives” that could do all the audio and home cinema reviews as they seem to have super human hearing.

 

[FrantzM]

I agree, but my point was that buying a dCS is not a financial investment as the asset depreciates. Therefore it doesn’t sell itself and must be marketed that it brings some other benefit. If a dCS doesn’t offer absolute SOTA performance then it is pointless.

Not exactly. We have the case of the TotalDAC that at $15,000.oo Yes, Fifteen Thousands, is no better than the $9.95 Apple dongle...
I am willing to bet that no DCS model surpasses the upper echelon of performance offered by many Toppings, SMSL, etc...


Peace.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Not exactly. We have the case of the TotalDAC that at $15,000.oo Yes, Fifteen Thousands, is no better than the $9.95 Apple dongle...
I am willing to bet that no DCS model surpasses the upper echelon of performance offered by many Toppings, SMSL, etc...


Peace.

You’ve misunderstood me. I’m not saying that products like dCS actually offer SOTA/best sound/value. I’m saying that because they offer no other benefits, e.g. status or appreciation, their makers have no alternative but to market them as offering better sound than everything else.

 

[Natchie]

I'm curious about the demographic analysis of buyers...since the presentation was made in Honk Kong with a Chinese translator as part of the sales team, are there many buyers from China? This is hugely expensive hi-fi equipment!!

 

[DSJR]

Hong Kong *used to be* the kind-of perfect high-end market for confections like this. I was told by a UK maker once, that status and prestige enhancement from the boxes was what their market was all about, superior sound quality over our 'cheap favourites' taken for granted (nobody in the high end there seemingly gets off on a $/£200 SMSL or Topping with display and balanced outputs, no matter how excellent the tech side and/or truthfulness of reproduction). Said maker actually all but tripled the prices of his products and increased sales as a result!!!

Maybe the above thinking doesn't jive well with people here (it bewilders me), but it's this thinking that makes dCS arguably so 'desired' over there and here amongst the oligarch fraternity (not sure how many are left in the UK now, as I suspect many have fled to less 'taxing' countries )

 

[FrantzM]

You’ve misunderstood me. I’m not saying that products like dCS actually offer SOTA/best sound/value. I’m saying that because they offer no other benefits, e.g. status or appreciation, their makers have no alternative but to market them as offering better sound than everything else.

Got you!

Peace.

 

[Short38]

Current issue of Stereophile has a many page JVS paean to the Varese. A semi critical comparison of ASR measures of the RME to the Stereophile measures of the Varese says there would, under controlled conditions, be no audible difference. The Varese stack weighs more than the RME and of course has many more interconnect points. So the additional rack and interconnect opportunities probably justify the difference in price. Woo woo land for sure.

 

[DSJR]

Current issue of Stereophile has a many page JVS paean to the Varese. A semi critical comparison of ASR measures of the RME to the Stereophile measures of the Varese says there would, under controlled conditions, be no audible difference. The Varese stack weighs more than the RME and of course has many more interconnect points. So the additional rack and interconnect opportunities probably justify the difference in price. Woo woo land for sure.

I suspect the RME casework would be too utilitarian as well...

 

[egellings]

I wonder how many of those product units have been so.d.

...sold.

 

[egellings]

I wonder how many of those product units have been so.d.

...sold.

 

[egellings]

But how else are you supposed to market these things? They are not the investment that other luxury products are like watches, super cars and artwork.

True. The watches, cars & artwork appreciate in value as they age. The electronics simply becomes obsolete as it ages and it loses value most of the time.

 

[fatoldgit]

Hong Kong *used to be* the kind-of perfect high-end market for confections like this.

My last turntable was from Acoustic Solid of Germany (one of their mid range heavy metal ones) which I brought while living in the US 15 years ago....but I had to get it from Canada.

I asked the dealer why there were so few dealers in North America and he stated that they mainly focus on the Asian market (as well as the EU as they are German) cause big, heavy stuff sells very well in Asia.

The company founder was a former Chief Metallurgist at BMW so he knows metals and machining very well...hence their focus on heavy, polished metal turntables.

Now I will note that most of their tables are reasonably priced (IMHO.. at least back in 2009) but they do have statement models (and associated stands), as below :

They use "string" drive (thin nylon fishing wire) to rotate the platter so looking at this model the two towers (hard left and hard right) at the back each have a motor so this uses a twin string drive system (due I assume to the weight of the platter).


Peter

 

[DSJR]

My last turntable was from Acoustic Solid of Germany (one of their mid range heavy metal ones) which I brought while living in the US 15 years ago....but I had to get it from Canada.

I asked the dealer why there were so few dealers in North America and he stated that they mainly focus on the Asian market (as well as the EU as they are German) cause big, heavy stuff sells very well in Asia.

The company founder was a former Chief Metallurgist at BMW so he knows metals and machining very well...hence their focus on heavy, polished metal turntables.

Now I will note that most of their tables are reasonably priced (IMHO.. at least back in 2009) but they do have statement models (and associated stands), as below :

View attachment 444344

They use "string" drive (thin nylon fishing wire) to rotate the platter so looking at this model the two towers (hard left and hard right) at the back each have a motor so this uses a twin string drive system (due I assume to the weight of the platter).


Peter

You know, if 'sound quality' had anything to do with it, for the assumed huge cost of that thing, the owner could buy a proper cutting lathe minus cutter and fit a swanky 12" tonearm to (4g) track his Ortofon SPU pickup

One day, a wealthier exhibitor will 'do a Wilson' and have a posh system on display, yet secretly 'round the back' use a Wiim or whatever as source instructed by an iPad or similar

 

[Punter]

I visited the Acoustic Solid website (here) and while they declare their goal is to be "best in class" I wasn't able to find any actual specs on any of their offerings. If I was trying to achieve a cliché like that, I'd provide some evidence. Without values like wow & flutter and rumble, how am I to ascertain that I am getting "best in class"? This manufacturer has a broad range of models constructed of different materials like wood and plexiglass, surely if they had a "best in class" unit, that would be the only one they offered. Could it be that these items are mere jewelry? Surely not!

 

[fatoldgit]

Could it be that these items are mere jewelry? Surely not!

So in general, we have two schools of thought when it comes to energy dissipation with turntables (both from internal sources via the mechanics involved in turntable playback and external noise via say speaker feedback):

- drain it away with say a lightweight chassis which is the principal behind the higher end Rega tables, as an example
- block it from happening upfront via brick shithouse designs such as those from Acoustic Solid

In any specific high performing audio device, there is a fundamental design premise (say delta sigma verses R2R DAC's, no, some or a lot of feedback in an amp etc)

Some (most?) people just buy stuff without consideration to its fundamental design premise...but I consider this in what I buy.

In the case of turntables, I believe brick shithouse designs have advantages, with some being:

- drain away designs can suffer from feedback/footfalls etc (hence the number of Rega owners that use wall mounted shelves)

- large, heavy platters (once up to speed obviously) help with wow and flutter due to inertia (and don't need expensive electronics to maintain low levels of wow and flutter)


So the obvious material to use for a brick shithouse design is metal (hopefully not one that will rust/oxidise) and the obvious way to finish metal is to polish it (or anodize in the case of pure aluminium). In the same way that speaker manufacturers might lacquer a veneer or spray paint a cabinet without a veneer.

So your remark about "jewellery" is a snide one... should they just leave the rough CNC machining marks on the metal which is a by-product of its manufacture?. If this is the standard you want to set then no audio component should have it's cabinet/chassis/etc finished to an acceptable standard?

With regard to objective measurements, who believes a manufacturer even if they provide them?. There are many objective reviews of Acoustic Solid tables (German audio magazines are well known for objective reviews) and I did review these to ensure that the specific table I purchased (and others in the range) performed as needed.


Peter

PS. I am (1) not a newbie here and (2) are firmly on the science side of audio (and everything else in my life) so my purchase of this 'table was done through an objective lens.

PSS. I got the table 50% off cause it was a dealer demo on sale (they were coming out with a V2 of the model I got so the dealer needed to clear it). So a good deal all round...an objectively good component at a good price

PSSS. Having been a collector of vinyl since 1970 (given it was all we had until CD's came along), my spinning of vinyl was a legacy situation. When I retired 6 years ago, I ripped my 5000 CD's and 500 music DVD's, sold all my legacy playback gear ('table, phono stage, CD transport, DVD transport etc) and now use a $US 200 PC as my only source. Thus I am not, as you tried to portray (via your scorn for my table purchase) a typical audiophool or an audiophool at all

 

[fatoldgit]

You know, if 'sound quality' had anything to do with it, for the assumed huge cost of that thing, the owner could buy a proper cutting lathe minus cutter and fit a swanky 12" tonearm to (4g) track his Ortofon SPU pickup

One day, a wealthier exhibitor will 'do a Wilson' and have a posh system on display, yet secretly 'round the back' use a Wiim or whatever as source instructed by an iPad or similar

Well they all do it....chase different markets... they are afterall a business

You can buy a Chevy Malibu or a Chevy Corvette..... both are valid choices for a car company to manufacture.

Peter

 

[fatoldgit]

This manufacturer has a broad range of models constructed of different materials like wood and plexiglass, surely if they had a "best in class" unit, that would be the only one they offered.

Isn't it obvious (at least to everyone aside from yourself)?

Different raw materials have a base cost and different materials have a different base manufacturing cost so if a business wants to appeal to different price segments of their customer base ***, they offer products in different materials.

As I noted above, you can buy a Chevy Malibu or a Chevy Corvette..... both are valid choices for a car company to manufacture.

Each has a different BOM and the Corvette (depending on age) might use fibreglass or carbon fibre in the body which has a much higher cost structure then a pressed steel unibody design.

I know you are a technically savvy person so why bother with stupid statements when you know the reasons why.

And I have all day to chew the fat... I am just a sad lonely old man waiting for the Grim Reaper to knock on the door....at which point I will tell him to "f$$k off as I am too busy fighting an internet troll to die"

Peter


**** I do think that Acoustic Solid have too many models inside the different material ranges... with very little to differentiate between many of them. They are made to order (unless a dealer has the model you want in stock) so I guess it's no additional cost to support a large product set

 

[Punter]

I wasn't having a crack at you fatoldgit, I'm just amused by the lack of any specs on the Acoustic Solid website. Obviously, a savvy manufacturer will have a bunch of models to cater to different customers. I probably wouldn't have commented in the thread but Acoustic Solid had that "best in class" cliché and it irritated me.

 

[fatoldgit]

I wasn't having a crack at you fatoldgit, I'm just amused by the lack of any specs on the Acoustic Solid website. Obviously, a savvy manufacturer will have a bunch of models to cater to different customers. I probably wouldn't have commented in the thread but Acoustic Solid had that "best in class" cliché and it irritated me.

You mean I wasted my morning, fuming and shit posting at you for no reason!!!!

Now I am really mad!!!!

I do view Acoustic Solid as one of the good guys... they are a very much an engineering focused company (despite branching out into statement products which they never used to have... gotta follow the money) and despite your irritation at the "best in class" statement at least they aren't making exceptional claims about magic pixie dust, quantum this, nano that, metal alloys containing Unobtainium and the like.


Peter

 

[BeeKay]

Thanks guys, you made my day