dCS threatens with a 7-figure lawsuit over a review

[Tranquility Bass]

But it is ... kind of.

I had a friend and he had some cheap speakers that sounded dull, boomy and muffled (well below 300 a pair) and swung by with some excellent speakers.
Installed it and thought he would love to hear 'better' sound quality.
Instead he vastly preferred the dull wooly and boomy sound over excellent sound.

So ... sounds better is subjective and depends on the person while sound fidelity is more objective. Turned out not everyone prefers the same thing.
The difference between 300 and 10k DAC is non existent but the speakers are not. Does not mean we all like/prefer the same sound.

O.K. the vast majority of people will prefer the 100k speaker..

I really should say which is the more accurate reproduction but we could always take this example to the extreme and feed the 100k DAC into a 2 inch transistor radio speaker and see which combination is more accurate ? What do you think ?

You might think that is funny but the point being is that the flaws and faults in loudspeakers are orders of magnitude worse than the cheapest DAC and thus dominate the signal chain. And the reason why there are so many of these pirates producing expensive DACs and amps etc is because it's far easier to make a good DAC than it is to make a good speaker but they won't you to believe that somehow the upstream electronics can somehow magically fix up the problems in the loudspeaker it drives and this is the hype manufacturers of DAC's would like people to believe otherwise if they can't convince you to suspend your disbelief in the alleged benefits of their products then nobody would buy them.

 

[JSmith]

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have).

JSmith

 

[amirm]

Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other.

You don't go to an Italian restaurant and order Chinese food. In this forum, if you claim something about audio fidelity, you should expect being asked to demonstrate that and not just say, "I think it therefore it must be right." This holds whether it is me saying something like this, or you.

Regardless, your claims are completely off-topic. Please take them to other threads.

 

[CtheArgie]

Does @Nuni realize that if he’s been listening to these equipments or music since the late 60s, it is very likely that his high frequency hearing has deteriorated significantly? And he still claims magical discrimination?

 

[Newman]

I had a friend and he had some cheap speakers that sounded dull, boomy and muffled (well below 300 a pair) and swung by with some excellent speakers.
Installed it and thought he would love to hear 'better' sound quality.
Instead he vastly preferred the dull wooly and boomy sound over excellent sound.

So ... sounds better is subjective and depends on the person while sound fidelity is more objective. Turned out not everyone prefers the same thing.

Again...this kind of assertion (that some people will prefer dull woolly boomy sound over excellent sound, aka "everyone's taste in sound quality is different, maybe even unique") has been tested and found to not be true to any great extent.

Tests initially showed quite a bit of variation in what people prefer, but when they conducted hearing tests and removed a surprising number of listeners with significant hearing damage (well beyond normal age-related loss), then suddenly the variability dropped right away.

It is not an exaggeration to say that the tests show that we all pretty much have the same preference, and that is for accurate uncoloured sound quality, with the sole caveat of a few dB of bass level adjustment 'to taste'. Note: just the bass level, not the extension, not the smoothness.

What you did, by giving an anecdote about one friend and draw a universal generalisation from it, is not only a poor argument but one that the data refutes.

After all, if that's how your friend really likes music to sound, then he must go to a live band or orchestra and put his hands over his ears saying, "Can't someone put a heavy woollen cloak over all the instruments? It would sound so much better that way." And when you talk to him in a room, does he complain about your sibilant voice? I bet he doesn't do either of those things. People like things to sound real: that's the near-universal generalisation that not only is simply logical, but supported by data.

 

[Newman]

No. It was actually Karajan conducting Der Rosenkavalier with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (Marschallin), Christa Ludwig (Octavian), that killed it. The voices of these divine singers were so shrill I could not stand it.

Best Bet: Sighted Listening Effect.
Next best: speakers.
Next best: room.
Next...
Next...
Next...
Last best: DAC!

 

[Robbo99999]

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have). Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other. I have been listening to audio and have had systems since the late 60's. What I own now is what sounds good to me. I listened to well over 20 different dacs before I purchased my latest iteration and I purchased it because it sounded excellent to me - better than others I heard.

I'm sure you did & you have, but ultimately you were wasting your time & chasing your tail & you didn't know it, and it would be hard for you to acknowledge that, but if you're happy you're happy.

 

[solderdude]

I still do not understand the aggression. I buy what sounds good to me. So what? Why should this aggravate others?

Fair point. Everyone buys what they like/prefer.
People that buy 20k DACs usually also own high quality speakers etc. They are luxury items.
Enjoyment of gear can be had in any price class as well as technical performance.

What is questioned here is that you state there is an audible difference as a fact. What is said here is that hearing an audible difference doesn't make it a fact, could be for many reasons and not all of those are for technical or quality reasons nor has a price tag anything to do with that.
statements like below are what is arguably not necessarily true as 300 can already buy a TOTL perfomance DAC:

probably the first however the first choice would also sound far better with a better dac.

 

[solderdude]

Again...this kind of assertion (that some people will prefer dull woolly boomy sound over excellent sound, aka "everyone's taste in sound quality is different, maybe even unique") has been tested and found to not be true to any great extent.

Yep, that was the ONLY individual I encountered ... just stating that some people like/prefer something very different.

To make a point ... some people prefer a Meze 99 over a DT880 and others prefer a DT880 over a Meze 99 yet others find the DT880 to sharp/lack bass and find the Meze 99 too wooly/dark.

Science only shows the majority of people prefers a certain average tonality and leaves room for different preferences.

This discussion, however, has nothing to do with Cameron's previous predicament which seems solved...

 

[Newman]

Fair point. Everyone buys what they like/prefer.

Well duh. It's his wild ambit claims that are the problem, and that are being addressed.

Yep, that was the ONLY individual I encountered ... just stating that some people like prefer something very different.

Sure. I'll allow one. Even more than one. But not to draw any generalisations broader than "the odd individual can be pretty weird". I mean, he hasn't even had his hearing tested, or confirmed his sighted listening opinion in controlled listening conditions. That anecdote is a long way from being worthy of drawing conclusions.

To make a point ... some people prefer a Meze 99 over a DT880 and others prefer a DT880 over a Meze 99 yet others find the DT880 to sharp/lack bass and find the Meze 99 too wooly/dark.

Science only shows the majority of people prefers a certain average tonality and leaves room for different preferences.

No. Not "the majority": that sounds like it could be 51%, on a very broad flat curve.

In reality it is more like 98%, on a very sharp and pointy curve, once you exclude significant hearing damage.

Your point is worded in a way that gives too much of an excuse for the 'YMMV' argument, that is so over-used that it gets in the way of understanding reality.

 

[firedog]

Did you buy one?

Can you read my signature?

 

[firedog]

I do get a kick out of the many folks here who think they can speak to the motives and state of mind of audiophiles who buy expensive gear. Or for sports car enthusiasts or mechanical watch enthusiasts.

Why? Maybe they know some of them. Maybe they participate at forums with them and know their state of mind. Maybe they've been to high end audio shops and have talked with them.
I've done all of the above.

 

[firedog]

I don't really agree with this. You can get a few intersample overs just by using a normal amount of compression and converting to lossy formats, but it should not be audible. It might produce some extra THD for a couple milliseconds maybe once or twice per song.

If the recording is compressed enough to produce audible distortion from intersample overs, I think you would need to see peaks clipped for tens of milliseconds at a time, a really atrocious result and not something I've actually seen in the worst cases. Even someone who has never mastered an album before would probably notice it sounded bad and back off.

Acc'd to a couple of pieces of playback software I own, LOTS of modern recordings have such distortion that regularly appears throughout playback. And no, it isn't particularly audible.

 

[solderdude]

Your point is worded in a way that gives too much of an excuse for the 'YMMV' argument, that is so over-used that it gets in the way of understanding reality.

I don't see anything wrong with anyone buying whatever they want for whatever reason in whatever price class and liking/preferring it.

Sure ... he made some statements you, me and most ASR members do not agree with and are not factual but appear reality to him.
One can point those out but we can't force anyone to see things differently, regardless of the arguments used.

No. Not "the majority": that sounds like it could be 51%, on a very broad flat curve.

In reality it is more like 98%, on a very sharp and pointy curve, once you exclude significant hearing damage.

This is not what Harman research shows nor what my experience, sales numbers of gear and consumer reports indicate.
You are pulling numbers and sharp pointy curves out of your hat that are not backed up by Harman research.

 

[JSmith]

Can you read my signature?

I can... as I'm on a PC. But on mobile devices I believe the sig is hidden.


JSmith

 

[firedog]

I'm curious is there any DACs or AMPs that go up in value in price? Not to bring up watches again, but my end game watch was the Midnight Planetarium by Van Cleef & Arpels (LINK for those that are interested) and it was around $40,000 to $50,000 when I saw it 10 years ago. Now I presently see the price is over $250,000.

Some of the classic McIntosh gear can sell for very high prices if it is in good shape or refurbished. I have a friend who talks about what a fool he was for getting rid of his 1960's MAC tube amps years ago, as they are worth a lot today. Amps that cost a few hundred back in the day go for many thousands.

 

[raif71]

Thank goodness this drama unfolded in a positive manner for both GoldenSound and dCS. It was a good tactic for GoldenSound to reach out to the audio community and most people sympathized with his plight and dCS did the only sensible thing to apologize for this whole fiasco. Good job to the whole audio community and audio manufacturers have some thinking to do if they want to react in such manner in the future to negative reviews of their products.

 

[antcollinet]

The first, that the quality control of some of these cheaper dacs is very poor. There is plenty of evidence on this

Where is this evidence?

(Bear in mind that anecdote is not data)

 

[Haskil]

Walter W a dit :
Oui, c'est vrai, tous ces DAC Topping ont un son si stérile et clinique, c'est horrible. C'est ce que je pensais aussi jusqu'à ce que je découvre qu'il ya plus que Céline Dion et puis j'ai découvert que c'était la musique que j'écoutais depuis toujours. Je suis bête !

Non, c'est en fait Karajan qui dirigeait Le Chevalier à la rose avec Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (la Maréchaussée) et Christa Ludwig (Octave) qui a fait un carton. Les voix de ces chanteuses divines étaient si stridentes que je ne pouvais pas les supporter.

C'est intéressant. J'aime beaucoup cet enregistrement favori (la version monophonique plutôt que la version stéréophonique sortie il y a une vingtaine d'années que Scharzkopf a rejetée pour des raisons qu'elle a expliquées : en effet, EMI a édité sur CD un enregistrement stéréo simultané d'un enregistrement mono avec un équilibrage moins soigné) et en fait, il sonne merveilleusement bien à la maison au travers d'un DAC Topping DX3 Pro qui n'a, à ce jour, connu aucune panne bien qu'il soit allumé tous les jours pendant des heures depuis 3 ans, comme au travers du DAC d'un TACT 2.2X, comme l'ont lu tous mes lecteurs CD ayant un DAC ou celui d'un AVR Denon 3600... comme il sonnait très bien au travers de tous les DAC passés par la maison et il y en a beaucoup depuis les premiers mis sur le marché notamment par Denon qui fut l'un des premiers constructeurs grand public à en commercialiser un, puis Cambrige Audio, sur ce sujet n'ayant jamais pu entendre la moindre différence entre un DAC Magic et un Weiss studio...

Je vous conseille aussi d'écouter le trio final du Chevalier à la rose dans les enregistrements réalisés par Solti et par Varviso chez Decca... Des enceintes médiocres ou mal installées dans une acoustique déficiente ont beaucoup de mal avec les trois chanteurs, encore plus à mon avis qu'avec le disque réalisé par Karajan : ces enregistrements sont un excellent test de distorsion d'intermodulation... à tel point qu'ils figurent avec d'autres dans une "play list" de tests d'écoute que je me suis faite...

Ce sont des avis éminemment personnels... à l'exception du commentaire sur la fiabilité du Topping DX3 Pro qui est un fait : 3 ans de service quotidien, plusieurs heures de fonctionnement et aucune panne... Mais ce fait ne concerne que mon expérience personnelle avec ce DAC Topping... qui a pu tomber en panne chez d'autres audiophiles qui le possèdent.

PS Many apologies, I don't know what happened: I posted in English... but I must have messed around with the Chrome settings...

Translated by moderator

yes, that's right, all these topping dacs sound so sterile and clinical, it's horrible. that's what i thought too until i found out there's more than celine dion and then i found out that's the music i've been listening to all my life. i'm stupid!

no, it was actually karajan who directed the knight of the rose with elisabeth schwarzkopf (the maréchaussée) and christa ludwig (octave) that was a hit. the voices of these divine singers were so shrill that i couldn't stand them.

that's interesting. I really like this favorite recording (the monophonic version rather than the stereophonic version released about twenty years ago that Scharzkopf rejected for reasons she explained: in fact, EMI released on CD a simultaneous stereo recording of a mono recording with less careful balancing) and in fact, it sounds wonderful at home through a Topping DX3 Pro DAC which has, to this day, not had any failure despite being turned on every day for hours for 3 years, as through the DAC of a TACT 2.2X, as all my CD players with a DAC have read or that of a Denon 3600 AVR... as it sounded very good through all the DACs that have passed through the house and there are many since the first ones put on the market in particular by Denon which was one of the first consumer manufacturers to market one, then Cambrige Audio, on this subject having never been able to hear the slightest difference between a Magic DAC and a Weiss studio...

I also recommend listening to the final trio of the Knight of the Rose in the recordings made by Solti and Varviso at Decca... Mediocre or poorly installed speakers in poor acoustics have a lot of trouble with the three singers, even more in my opinion than with the disc made by Karajan: these recordings are an excellent test of intermodulation distortion... so much so that they appear with others in a "play list" of listening tests that I made for myself...

These are eminently personal opinions... with the exception of the comment on the reliability of the Topping DX3 Pro which is a fact: 3 years of daily service, several hours of operation and no breakdowns... But this fact only concerns my personal experience with this Topping DAC... which may have broken down at other audiophiles who own it.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

You don't go to an Italian restaurant and order Chinese food.

Once years ago, I did go into a McDonalds in Hong Kong and ordered spaghetti.