dCS threatens with a 7-figure lawsuit over a review

[Doodski]

Absolutely.

TOTL amplifiers and receivers from the glory days of the mid to late 1970s are now enormously valuable and sell for many times their original cost.

Certain rare CD transport and DAC combinations are highly sought after and hugely expensive.

Certain open reel decks are also very valuable

What does a ~1978 top of the line 21" wide or maybe 23" wide Kenwood analogue receiver command these days?

 

[FrantzM]

Absolutely.

TOTL amplifiers and receivers from the glory days of the mid to late 1970s are now enormously valuable and sell for many times their original cost.

Certain rare CD transport and DAC combinations are highly sought after and hugely expensive.

Certain open reel decks are also very valuable.

I would surmise at least one brand that I know whose wares become more expensive the second you buy these: FM Acoustics... Unobtanium by any other name...

Studer 820 is another cult R2R,
Some speakers, especially horns, are in that category...

Peace

 

[tmtomh]

The choices were partially made for credibility.

I think this actually connects to the status factor. I agree with @Justdafactsmaam that most audiophiles who have very expensive gear are not buying it for status in the narrow sense: they're not buying it to flex or to show it off like bling or as some kind of manhood statement or statement of superiority.

But I think "credibility" is a form of status, and buying a $30k DAC can be construed as saying, "I am credible - I am a serious audiophile who is willing to make major investments in pursuit of the very best build and sound quality." This, in my view, is an example of status-seeking in the academic-sociological sense of the term, even though I agree it does not quite fit the narrower, more everyday idea of status-seeking.

To put it another way, I don't think status on the one hand, and seeking out the best sound quality on the other hand, are mutually exclusive motivations, or even entirely different motivations. Spending a lot for something you feel is "the very best" is not only a way of seeking out the best - it's also a way of reassuring yourself that you really have made sure you've got first-rate gear. And that process of making oneself feel secure that one made the right decision is very rarely something we do purely privately, by ourselves - we often talk to others about it, engage with like-minded hobbyists about it, invite others over to listen to it, and so on.

Nothing wrong with any of that of course - all good. But it's still part of the realm of status even though it's not showing off or anything crass.

 

[tmtomh]

If someone in later life wants to buy a DAC or AMP they could not afford when they were younger ,then they will pay whatever it costs to satisfy said itch.

I see that a lot in the realm of adult toy collecting.

 

[jdjung]

TOTL amplifiers and receivers from the glory days of the mid to late 1970s are now enormously valuable and sell for many times their original cost.

Certain rare CD transport and DAC combinations are highly sought after and hugely expensive.

Certain open reel decks are also very valuable.

Oh no...another rabbit hole for me to stumble into.

 

[Nuni]

The same could be said about a large number of High End Audio brands.. From the top of my head I could cite Audio Research and Jadis.. Of course this is based on anecdotes, like your evidences

You may believe that you can hear the differences.. You will in most cases, not, ... once a few bias-inducing inputs, are removed.. One of these is the SPL level, thus such comparisons require level matching , the other one is the knowledge of what you are listening to. With these two controls (there are others, but these 2 will be enough IMO), in place, your up-to-then, unusually discerning, hearing will fail you. As it has for so many... This will be humbling at first then liberating. Like knowing that an Apple dongle is likely to sound to you, and 99.9999% of the World population, the same, when level -matched and the knowledge of the DUT removed... to a $!5,000.oo DAC, perhaps the vaunted $100,000 dCS stack ... At times the enthusiasm seems to come as aggression but .. it is so: DACS are a solved problem.. Speakers and especially speakers in most, any rooms, are not. Focus on those, .. You will be glad you did .
Believe it..

Peace.

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have). Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other. I have been listening to audio and have had systems since the late 60's. What I own now is what sounds good to me. I listened to well over 20 different dacs before I purchased my latest iteration and I purchased it because it sounded excellent to me - better than others I heard.

 

[Doodski]

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have). Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other. I have been listening to audio and have had systems since the late 60's. What I own now is what sounds good to me. I listened to well over 20 different dacs before I purchased my latest iteration and I purchased it because it sounded excellent to me - better than others I heard.

I must say you did it again. A eloquent presentation. In root terms though the varying voltage output of the DACs is what is making you hear differences if you really do hear double blind listening differences. That is the key factor voltage and then blind listening tests to root out bias etc.

 

[mhardy6647]

Absolutely.

TOTL amplifiers and receivers from the glory days of the mid to late 1970s are now enormously valuable and sell for many times their original cost.

Certain rare CD transport and DAC combinations are highly sought after and hugely expensive.

Certain open reel decks are also very valuable.

Vintage Altec & JBL loudspeaker systems & components are still nicely inflated in selling price relative to their MSRPs -- I am pleased to report.

 

[WalterW]

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have). Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other. I have been listening to audio and have had systems since the late 60's. What I own now is what sounds good to me. I listened to well over 20 different dacs before I purchased my latest iteration and I purchased it because it sounded excellent to me - better than others I heard.

Which you clearly found out in controlled, level-matched blind tests excluding all other potential sources of distracting influences, I am sure of.

 

[Nuni]

Which you clearly found out in controlled, level-matched blind tests excluding all other potential sources of distracting influences, I am sure of.

While not controlled to the level that you probably deem acceptable, I certainly did not know and did not want to know what I was listening to - I never do when I am in the market for a piece of equipment. Incidentally the purchase I make is nearly always not the most expensive piece of equipment I hear. AS I said before, cost is not always indicative of the quality - to provide an example, I am not really a fan of Wilson.

 

[ahofer]

While not controlled to the level that you probably deem acceptable, I certainly did not know and did not want to know what I was listening to - I never do when I am in the market for a piece of equipment. Incidentally the purchase I make is nearly always not the most expensive piece of equipment I hear. AS I said before, cost is not always indicative of the quality - to provide an example, I am not really a fan of Wilson.

I'm not a fan of Wilson either, and it is amazing how much inferior expensive equipment there is out there (sighted or not). But I agree with others that proper level control is the whole shooting match in comparisons. The louder one will sound better. Of course we also imagine things, but being deprived of visual cues helps with that.

 

[Newman]

The best advise we can take from all this is to never get so emotional about a product you developed or purchased that you have to defend it even after the facts say different

haha...I was going to name-tag a few members to note your advice, especially those most egregiously over-defensive about their favourite and often expensive toys, but then I thought "nah, who needs the grief?".

But I especially like your comment because, you know, ASR just isn't the place for this sort of behaviour. And it can go way OTT with some Defenders.

 

[Jim Taylor]

There have been a number of expensive lemons, but you often do get what you pay for.

You may or may not get what you pay for, but you ALWAYS pay for what you get.

You are not the first person to air opinions counter to reality, and I suppose you won't be the last. The reason that you believe you have heard what you have heard is that your mind is subject to cognitive biases ... see here.
Biases are very efficient shortcuts which our brain has programmed to use sensory input ... sights, sounds and touch are the most commonly cited ... to generate a quick and efficient response. In other words, they keep us alive.
The problem with biases is twofold: 1) they are not accurate in the sense that they are not calibrated against a standard, and 2) They cannot be turned off and turned on; IOW they are not controllable.
There is another problem with biases; we may not even be conscious that they are at work.

The way to eliminate the control bias has over us is to follow the Scientific Method. This method uses logic, rigorous control of procedure and environment and peer review to gain reliable information about the world around us.
The Method uses logic and control to eliminate the effect of emotion and superstition. In centuries past, these factors caused people to believe things that were untrue. (The earth is NOT at the center of the solar system, although people believed that it obviously was.) The use of logic and control enabled scientists to ferret out the truth, although some people were resistant to change, preferring their long-held belief systems.

In regards to audio, the basic test for those seeking freedom from bias is the double-blind test. It's a pain in the neck to set up, and it takes a rather long time to undergo. But in the end, it teaches you what is real and what is not.
And notice that I said, "... it teaches you ...". The test is for you to learn the truth of your abilities, not for us.

This video gives you a rundown on how it's done ... and why. Good luck!

Jim

 

[Tranquility Bass]

That is not quite correct. While you are correct in saying that there are more issues with power amps etc, there have also been issues with dacs. There are complaints even on this site - I suggest you look further. There ar quite a lot of complaints on other sites. Again, whether you think these are legitimate or not is another question; in my case I was not prepared to take the risk. Incidentally, I certainly do not believe that the more expensive a product is the better it is. There have been a number of expensive lemons, but you often do get what you pay for.

Expensive gear breaks too and much more costly to repair. It's just that there is much more cheap gear around than expensive gear so the comparison on numbers alone is unfair. People can afford to throw away a $300 Topping DAC and buy another one or just keep one as spare which is not so for the expensive behomoths

 

[Nuni]

You may or may not get what you pay for, but you ALWAYS pay for what you get.

Not necessarily, Jim. One of the better sounding turntables I have heard is the Kuzma Stabi S for example.In my opinion this outperforms tts often costing 3x to 4x as much. So why did I mention this? To show that there are bargains around if you search for them and know what you are doing. However, once again, this is my opinion.
By the way, I have looked at most of the videos here, (though not all the way through in all cases as they bore me to tears). Also I am well aware of and confident in my own abilities, having been around for a while.

 

[Tranquility Bass]

Look as I stated before, it is fine if you believe you hear no difference, if you believe that "DACS are a solved problem" and if you believe that I cannot hear a difference. (I certainly can and always have). Each of us is happy and neither of us has to denigrate the other. I have been listening to audio and have had systems since the late 60's. What I own now is what sounds good to me. I listened to well over 20 different dacs before I purchased my latest iteration and I purchased it because it sounded excellent to me - better than others I heard.

$300 DAC + 100k speaker vs $300 speaker + 100k DAC ! Which system sounds better ??

I presented the same argument on a dcs thread and the dude defending the expensive DAC kept skating around the issue and said that the expensive DAC has "Synergy" which wasn't present in the cheaper DAC's. I asked him will his "Synergy" fix up the issues in a $300 speaker ??

 

[Jim Taylor]

Not necessarily, Jim. One of the better sounding turntables I have heard is the Kuzma Stabi S for example.In my opinion this outperforms tts often costing 3x to 4x as much. So why did I mention this? To show that there are bargains around if you search for them and know what you are doing. However, once again, this is my opinion.
By the way, I have looked at most of the videos here, (though not all the way through in all cases as they bore me to tears). Also I am well aware of and confident in my own abilities, having been around for a while.

My maxim had no double meaning ... it was meant to be taken quite literally. Sorry about that!

Jim

 

[Chrispy]

no need to waste more of my time here. that's also an expression of free opinion.

since there is no button to delete my account, feel free to do so and all of my posts, moderators. i never ever said anything that attacked this website, so the reaction was utterly unprofessional, sorry - and amounted to censorship because of a minor nuance when my comments were perceived as an attack by some overly sensitive attitude.

seems like that's the way audio forums end up in the end. not worth the time invested in them.

Reminds me the forum isn't an airport, no need to announce departures. Especially for being weirdly butt-hurt.

 

[RoyRoyRoy]

Shield your eyes....and behold the ~$12,000 USD Nordost Odin 2 Power Cord (on sale of course): https://www.audioeden.com/products/view/nordost-odin2-power-cord---demo

I sent this to my friend who is a medical physicist who works on MRI machines. He couldn't make sense of the price. I know I'm being a bit mean, but c'mon, that much for a power cable?!? I think these kind of products need to die. At least DACs require engineering, this....not so much.

 

[Tranquility Bass]

Shield your eyes....and behold the ~$12,000 USD Nordost Odin 2 Power Cord (on sale of course): https://www.audioeden.com/products/view/nordost-odin2-power-cord---demo

I sent this to my friend who is a medical physicist who works on MRI machines. He couldn't make sense of the price. I know I'm being a bit mean, but c'mon, that much for a power cable?!? I think these kind of products need to die. At least DACs require engineering, this....not so much.

You can get the same placebo from alieexpress for 50 bucks. It looks like the original so it will sound like the original right ?