dCS threatens with a 7-figure lawsuit over a review

[mocenigo]

I don't think dCS should sue anyone. I think they, and everyone else, should just ignore these subjective reviewers and reviews. I made it through about two thirds of Cameron's review whilst fighting off nausea. He really is clueless. If you are going to go on YouTube and spew a bunch of nonsense, then someone may threaten to sue.

He knows something. Not much, conceded. And he does subjective, mostly sighted, reviewing.

His mistaking filters for DACs however points to a mistake *we* also make. We claim that two DACs with excellent measurements cannot be audibly distinguished. And we ignore three things:

1. Suppose two DACs are identical except that they have fixed, but very different filters. They could be distinguished (probably only if you're relatively young and your equipment emphasizes treble, but still...). The measurements would in many cases (esp if weighted) be similar.
2. The AP measurement devices are easy loads, usually they have input impedances of 100 kΩ or higher. In real life DACs with different output impedances that measure identical into the AP, going into an amp/preamp with low input impedance may behave in a different way. So in this case "they measure the same, and the measurement is excellent in both cases, so they must sound the same" is wrong, because it depends on a context that is quite regularly ignored here.
3. For DACs: what about intersample clipping? It is not measured here, but Goldensound does.

Case 1. is extremely corner, but 2 and 3 are important, and should not be ignored. Yet, Amir's reviews do not always mention these cases (this is usually limited to response vs load for power amps).
A subjectivist might find some differences and we should enquire about the whole setting, instead of just shooing them away telling them that the differences must be only in their brains. They most likely are, but we should first exclude the corner cases.

It seems the qualification for being a subjective reviewer is to have no technical background, and to attribute musical qualities to electronic circuits.

This is in most cases indeed true.

 

[mocenigo]

This is the same product/market strategy that Kodak used to go bankrupt after more than 100 years of dominance. Protect the key technology (sliver halide film - in Kodak's case) no matter if other technologies are surpassing it (digital photography), use legal means, and deny the truth of the situation. Get every last dollar out of the product, and that is what Kodak got. dCS is using the same playbook.

In a nutshell, this is the inventor's dilemma. Either you reinvent yourself, to the risk of alienating the existing customer base even in the short term, but with a shot at survival, or you just delay the inevitable. Some companies create a virtual spinoff that sells the new stuff, but it requires investment.

 

[Galliardist]

We hope that these companies have already run numerous tests, ideally the same as yours but at least to some "industry standard", as part of the development and QC process, so it should be trivial for them to supply their measurements for comparison.

DAC companies know that they can be well behind the technical "best" and their product will still produce audibly the same sound waves as those "best" devices if they use similar maths/filters. So it is, I suspect, with dCS. After all, they pushed their supposedly better "Apex" technology into the Bartok shortly after a series of reviews that showed that they were short technically of the best measuring devices. One of the ironies here is that they no longer make the product they threatened to sue over, but a newer version.

I can only find limited measurements of the Apex variant (on the HiFi News website): they still appear to be very good but behind the best.

It's a bit of a shame to see dCS in this state. Back in the early 1990s the dCS I knew about then were advancing the state of the art, would have just responded to something like this technically and wouldn't have rested at being anything short of the very best. These days it seems they are relying on past glories, marketing and the usual fairy dust claims. I think this fiasco will do them more damage than a lot of other high end firms, simply because of that past reputation which would attract more technically minded people who would indeed read this kind of review and be surprised at this company being even a little behind state of the art.

As for the truly subjective audiophile, I guess most will now be spending five figure sums mainly on vinyl playback. I guess dCS have been caught between Topping and the vinyl renaissance.

 

[Palladium]

I guess dCS have been caught between Topping and the vinyl renaissance.

Have they tried suing ESS/AKM/Cirrus/Apple for innovating too much on DACs?

 

[Galliardist]

Have they tried suing ESS/AKM/Cirrus/Apple for innovating too much on DACs?

Maybe they should sue Mr Fremer for his subjective opinions on vinyl playback.

 

[Scytales]

To be clear, I am not at all in favor of deleting any company, dCS included. I do want them to learn common business sense. And that would have called for an immediate and short statement of saying they are sorry, mistakes were made, and they will change their approach in the future. Instead they make things worse with their response which had nothing to do with the issues they had with the review.

I suspect dCS may have overreacted that irrational way because they didn't know how to deal with pressure coming from their own customer base.

 

[Omnia Vanitas]

“Without the freedom to blame, there is no flattering praise”. Beaumarchais, The Marriage of Figaro.

 

[DSJR]

no need to waste more of my time here. that's also an expression of free opinion.

since there is no button to delete my account, feel free to do so and all of my posts, moderators. i never ever said anything that attacked this website, so the reaction was utterly unprofessional, sorry - and amounted to censorship because of a minor nuance when my comments were perceived as an attack by some overly sensitive attitude.

seems like that's the way audio forums end up in the end. not worth the time invested in them.

Please sir, have a good night's kip if you haven't already and maybe a few days off plus a stiff drink before venturing back to post. I enjoy reading your views and opinions even if we don't always overlap

 

[Human Bass]

Sir, you are not alone in your views regarding this whole parody of a "scandal". It is, to me, a very bad move that the forum got involved into this matter. Remaining silent to this attempt for a public deletion of a company is a self-punishment to one who believes in the wrongness of the massive propaganda methods used in order to make a point. As I mentioned earlier, the moment this matter became public the way it did, the question was no longer who is right or wrong. It became a public lynch, a draconian punishment . There was a people's sentence with hardly any trial. Disgusting is the only word I have to describe this.

DCS can talk to its mommy or therapist for some solace.

 

[mocenigo]

In fact, if anything his measurements are even way more comprehensive than Amir’s. But the reason for doing so is probably to find some specific thing that he then can couple his subjective findings with, without actually verifying the causation.

True, for instance DACs here are not tested for intersample clipping, and it is something big and important. Furthermore, for amplifiers we should study the effect of a large signal on a much smaller one, to identify memory distortion, histeresis distortion and similar effects. Both would be simple and I strongly encourage @amirm to start doing them.

 

[anmpr1]

The most relevant legal precedent for this is probably Bose vs. Consumer Reports, and Bose lost.

Bose won an initial judgement, overturned on appeal. The issue for the court was whether CU acted with malice in their Consumer Reports magazine review.

The appeals court found that the wording in the CR review was vague, and likely not an accurate description of the loudspeaker's actual sonic presentation (ten foot wide violins and instruments 'wandering around the room', etc.). Indeed, the court questioned whether the reviewers actually heard what was described in print, but it in the end decided that although the review might have been 'sloppy' or hyperbolic, it was the magazine's honest opinion, and no malicious intent was involved.

The court ruled that a reviewer's words had to be both false and written with malice before the company could be awarded relief. Malice was not demonstrated and the appeals court therefore denied the Bose appeal.

 

[SIY]

At least, that clearly closes the door to any legal litigation.

And yet, the pants-wetting continues.

 

[mocenigo]

I've been a member of GoldenSound's Discord channel since day one. I also followed his Telegram chat for a while, but it eventually became too cringe-y.

I am perplex by the D90 "softening" too much. I do not hear that. "Softening" implies some loss of detail, which this DAC (I am referring to the very first D90) definitely is actually rendering very well. Everything seems to me to be there. Probably since the first D90 had the AK4499, it must be "velvety" and therefore "soft", Whatever. It is a magnificent DAC, once your sink has a high input impedance.

 

[piaseczek]

Whatever. It is a magnificent DAC, once your sink has a high input impedance.

Good point.

Is it enough to take a look at 600ohm graphs to confirm that given DAC manage low input impedance? Or something else is needed?

 

[prerich]

Both seem sincere ... The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.... leaning towards Cameron's side of the story.

I've always stated - there are three sides to every story - yours, theirs, and the truth. I believe you just hit the nail on the head.

 

[solderdude]

Good point.

Is it enough to take a look at 600ohm graphs to confirm that given DAC manage low input impedance? Or something else is needed?

For headphone outputs ...no
For XLR or RCA out when it performs well in a 600ohm load it will do well in any amplifier load.
Even if the output impedance is 600ohm this is not a bad thing.

I don't think this DAC does anything poorly at all (measures pretty well and better should be at this price.
Only on VFM it scores poorly but then again for audio jewelry VFM is not important, exclusivity is.
This DAC is a luxury item that actually works well and screams 'quality'.

 

[mhardy6647]

That's it!
I am never going to buy another new audio product, ever again.
Such traveshamockery in the industry makes me wish I was a member of an emotional-support group.
I've had enough!

I learned a word today.

 

[Purité Audio]

A naughty word?
Keith

 

[AdamG]

traveshamockery

A naughty word?
Keith

Maybe…I’m still dwelling on the mashup creativity.

 

[pseudoid]

Maybe…I’m still dwelling on the mashup creativity.

Not mine...
"traveshamockery"