dCS Bartók Measurements by GoldenSound

[srkbear]

"I heard them both."

Well, then, what more can be said? Clearly your ears provide the true Newtonian reference plane for such things. We must acquiesce to your expertise.

Yes, he is on record that the best reviewer there is in his opinion is “his own ears”, and he’s clearly here to wage war on this forum and its purpose en masse. For the purposes of continuing my own enjoyment here I followed another’s suggestion and just blocked his posts.

 

[Bob from Florida]

But, but, but

How does it SOUND?!?!?!

Very good question as a friend of mine just bought one from a dealer- may have been open box - for a reduction in price. He was telling me how good it sounded out of the box and wanted me to come by and listen. The first thing I told him in a joking way was that he had “lost his mind” spending that kind of money on a music server / DAC. However, he could afford it and like most of us things that don’t make sense to others get purchased if it can be “afforded”. So, I listened two nights in a row. First night revealed it sounded “horrible” second night was an attempt to find out why. When I say “horrible” I mean actual distortion that was audible from whatever service he streams from - which was supposed to be at least Red Book quality. So I looked at the settings and apparently you can select for some kind of DSD upsampling even if using PCM only. If you do that then additional DSD filters also turn on - it was set for a not so steep DAC filter and because DSD upsampling was on a DSD filter was in as well. Also, the clock setting was set such that it looked for a signal in the data stream to sync with versus using its own internal clock as a “Master”. Anyway, turning off the DSD upsampling, setting primary filter to “steep”, and setting clock to “Master” for internal sync seemed to help some. Also, sending ripped music from my iPhone to it via Airdrop improved things a lot as did playback from an external hard drive. Another test I tried was accessing you tube to play some Joe Bonamassa which sounded really distorted before making the above changes to settings. There was some improvement after the changes but another comparison to a hard drive version of the same recording sounded the best - still not stellar. Here’s the thing - I can access the same Joe Bonamassa on my iPhone and listen to it on my Airpods pro’s and it sounds amazing. I have a hard time believing it is this bad on purpose and am leaning towards it has a technical problem as it is “broken”. The final nail in the coffin was putting on a good record on his turntable and had an enjoyable session listening to “Jazz at the Pawnshop”. Now, he has a stellar vinyl playback chain but the Bartok should have at least equaled the vinyl playback, yet did not get very close even when better recordings from the hard drive were chosen. I don’t do a lot of streaming from my Volumio based Raspberry Pi - almost all hard drive music as I don’t subscribe to any service - but the internet radio stations accessible from Volumio sound pretty good compared to the Bartok.
If it is not broken, I just don’t understand how this product would be appealing to anyone.

 

[mccririck]

Very good question as a friend of mine just bought one from a dealer- may have been open box - for a reduction in price. He was telling me how good it sounded out of the box and wanted me to come by and listen. The first thing I told him in a joking way was that he had “lost his mind” spending that kind of money on a music server / DAC. However, he could afford it and like most of us things that don’t make sense to others get purchased if it can be “afforded”. So, I listened two nights in a row. First night revealed it sounded “horrible” second night was an attempt to find out why. When I say “horrible” I mean actual distortion that was audible from whatever service he streams from - which was supposed to be at least Red Book quality. So I looked at the settings and apparently you can select for some kind of DSD upsampling even if using PCM only. If you do that then additional DSD filters also turn on - it was set for a not so steep DAC filter and because DSD upsampling was on a DSD filter was in as well. Also, the clock setting was set such that it looked for a signal in the data stream to sync with versus using its own internal clock as a “Master”. Anyway, turning off the DSD upsampling, setting primary filter to “steep”, and setting clock to “Master” for internal sync seemed to help some. Also, sending ripped music from my iPhone to it via Airdrop improved things a lot as did playback from an external hard drive. Another test I tried was accessing you tube to play some Joe Bonamassa which sounded really distorted before making the above changes to settings. There was some improvement after the changes but another comparison to a hard drive version of the same recording sounded the best - still not stellar. Here’s the thing - I can access the same Joe Bonamassa on my iPhone and listen to it on my Airpods pro’s and it sounds amazing. I have a hard time believing it is this bad on purpose and am leaning towards it has a technical problem as it is “broken”. The final nail in the coffin was putting on a good record on his turntable and had an enjoyable session listening to “Jazz at the Pawnshop”. Now, he has a stellar vinyl playback chain but the Bartok should have at least equaled the vinyl playback, yet did not get very close even when better recordings from the hard drive were chosen. I don’t do a lot of streaming from my Volumio based Raspberry Pi - almost all hard drive music as I don’t subscribe to any service - but the internet radio stations accessible from Volumio sound pretty good compared to the Bartok.
If it is not broken, I just don’t understand how this product would be appealing to anyone.

I don't see why it would be broken. Your listening experience seems to back up GoldenSound.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I disagree. His measurements indicate a DAC that's not anything too special by modern standards, not one that's clearly broken! If the problem is plainly audible, it's bad.

I can only imagine that either the audio is sent into clipping somewhere internally (had the device been factory reset before use?) or that an analog supply voltage is missing or something. I don't think the DSD upsampling would be very happy about receiving >0 dBFS content.

For starters, I would try the thing as just a plain DAC via USB (got a printer cable A-B?) or SPDIF. If it sounds fine there, continue troubleshooting the streamer portion. Maybe something in the processing chain is goofed up bigtime, like EQ pre-gain or something. Try asking dCS support if you don't find anything obvious even after a reset.

At the end of the day, it may have been an open box special for a reason - maybe it was a return.

 

[mccririck]

I disagree. His measurements indicate a DAC that's not anything too special by modern standards, not one that's clearly broken! If the problem is plainly audible, it's bad.

I can only imagine that either the audio is sent into clipping somewhere internally (had the device been factory reset before use?) or that an analog supply voltage is missing or something. I don't think the DSD upsampling would be very happy about receiving >0 dBFS content.

For starters, I would try the thing as just a plain DAC via USB (got a printer cable A-B?) or SPDIF. If it sounds fine there, continue troubleshooting the streamer portion. Maybe something in the processing chain is goofed up bigtime, like EQ pre-gain or something. Try asking dCS support if you don't find anything obvious even after a reset.

At the end of the day, it may have been an open box special for a reason - maybe it was a return.

Maybe you're assuming it is broken because you think all DACs sound the same if they measure ok? GoldenSound spent some time checking that it wasnt broken because he was disappointed with the sound.

 

[Jimbob54]

Maybe you're assuming it is broken because you think all DACs sound the same if they measure ok?

It's not an unsafe assumption.

 

[mccririck]

It's not an unsafe assumption.

I edited my post as you replied. GoldenSound at first wondered if his was broken, too.

 

[Jimbob54]

Maybe you're assuming it is broken because you think all DACs sound the same if they measure ok? GoldenSound spent some time checking that it wasnt broken because he was disappointed with the sound.

Well there is the problem. We know how GS' model measured on the tests he ran, we know how the one Amir tested measured. We dont know how the one Bob heard measured or sounded and we dont know how GS one sounded. We certainly do not know if the one GS listened to sounds the same as the one Bob listened to.

In no way does any of this change the fact that a DAC that sounds obviously nasty is either broken in terms of the particular unit, the settings or the design. But this design is not broken.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Well there is the problem. We know how GS' model measured on the tests he ran, we know how the one Amir tested measured. We dont know how the one Bob heard measured or sounded and we dont know how GS one sounded. We certainly do not know if the one GS listened to sounds the same as the one Bob listened to.

In no way does any of this change the fact that a DAC that sounds obviously nasty is either broken in terms of the particular But unit, the settings or the design. But this design is not broken.

I suspect my friend thought it sounded good at first because it sounded "different". The first song played sounded like it was clipping - not enjoyable. I hope he is able to return it or get it repaired. Aside from the price - comparable to a pretty nice motorcycle - this device has too many variables to adjust. Schiit - for example - provides something that simply works with choice of input is all you select.
Why screw a product up with so many options that chosen poorly create problems?

 

[mccririck]

Well there is the problem. We know how GS' model measured on the tests he ran, we know how the one Amir tested measured. We dont know how the one Bob heard measured or sounded and we dont know how GS one sounded. We certainly do not know if the one GS listened to sounds the same as the one Bob listened to.

In no way does any of this change the fact that a DAC that sounds obviously nasty is either broken in terms of the particular unit, the settings or the design. But this design is not broken.

"listen to sounds the same as" - what?

We don't know if Bob's is broken. Measure it. I suspect it won't be broken and he just doesn't like how it sounds. If it was broken it probably wouldn't play any music.

 

[wav3form]

So what’s the point of expensive DACs like this if a 50 dollar DAC measures better and sounds the same?

 

[Purité Audio]

Good question, there is the ‘pride of ownership’ factor a huge milled from solid enclosure looks a lot more impressive just won’t sound any different.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

So what’s the point of expensive DACs like this if a 50 dollar DAC measures better and sounds the same?

The placebo effect is much stronger if the patient believes to cure to be very expensive?
Pride of owning something nicely made?
Status of somebody who can afford such an expensive item?

I own a dCS DAC and last time I did a compare (I now use an amp with built in DAC so it is in storage) when level matched, and I didn't know which DAC I was listening to, it sounded the same as all the other DACs with the normal reconstruction filter.

There was a difference with some of the different filters and upsampling choices and one sounded really harsh, so probably left artifacts in the audible range, but with the theoretically correct filter it was the same as the others I had at the time.

 

[Purité Audio]

I remember hearing the first DCS stack the Aztec Pyramid one and being really impressed, ( I never heard and still haven’t their first ‘pro’ offerings) then when PA came along considered stocking their next iteration the Scarlatti stack, and that didn’t seem any different to what we already had, did ‘other’ dacs improve or did I just get used to better quality I had met Daniel Weiss by then and were carrying his then new Dac202.
Keith

 

[bevok]

Don’t worry, the new Bartok Apex has world leading measured performance: https://dcsaudio.com/product/bartokapex
It was interesting on the latest Darko Audio podcast hearing the press release being read. Apparently others measuring the DAC might not know how to do it properly so don’t trust their numbers (I’m still trying to find theirs, I assume they just mean the provided specs). I was surprised the need to say that kind of thing didn’t raise at least a little caution with the presenters, I know it would for me if I wanted to pay 50 or so times more than a compenent DAC for the DCS’s admittedly handsome form factor.

 

[FrantzM]

Very good question as a friend of mine just bought one from a dealer- may have been open box - for a reduction in price. He was telling me how good it sounded out of the box and wanted me to come by and listen. The first thing I told him in a joking way was that he had “lost his mind” spending that kind of money on a music server / DAC. However, he could afford it and like most of us things that don’t make sense to others get purchased if it can be “afforded”. So, I listened two nights in a row. First night revealed it sounded “horrible” second night was an attempt to find out why. When I say “horrible” I mean actual distortion that was audible from whatever service he streams from - which was supposed to be at least Red Book quality. So I looked at the settings and apparently you can select for some kind of DSD upsampling even if using PCM only. If you do that then additional DSD filters also turn on - it was set for a not so steep DAC filter and because DSD upsampling was on a DSD filter was in as well. Also, the clock setting was set such that it looked for a signal in the data stream to sync with versus using its own internal clock as a “Master”. Anyway, turning off the DSD upsampling, setting primary filter to “steep”, and setting clock to “Master” for internal sync seemed to help some. Also, sending ripped music from my iPhone to it via Airdrop improved things a lot as did playback from an external hard drive. Another test I tried was accessing you tube to play some Joe Bonamassa which sounded really distorted before making the above changes to settings. There was some improvement after the changes but another comparison to a hard drive version of the same recording sounded the best - still not stellar. Here’s the thing - I can access the same Joe Bonamassa on my iPhone and listen to it on my Airpods pro’s and it sounds amazing. I have a hard time believing it is this bad on purpose and am leaning towards it has a technical problem as it is “broken”. The final nail in the coffin was putting on a good record on his turntable and had an enjoyable session listening to “Jazz at the Pawnshop”. Now, he has a stellar vinyl playback chain but the Bartok should have at least equaled the vinyl playback, yet did not get very close even when better recordings from the hard drive were chosen. I don’t do a lot of streaming from my Volumio based Raspberry Pi - almost all hard drive music as I don’t subscribe to any service - but the internet radio stations accessible from Volumio sound pretty good compared to the Bartok.
If it is not broken, I just don’t understand how this product would be appealing to anyone.

A walk down memory lanes: Back in the days when I was a card-carrying (literally I had such a card..) subjective audiophile, I auditioned audiophiles setups all over; often in my neck of the woods, call that a radius of 300 miles ( I/we'd drive hours if necessary) but sometimes well outside that... I have heard several mega dollars (>$500K) systems and remain befuddled to these days by some of those... In particular those with Single Ended triodes (in general) but when these were driving so called "full range" one-driver speakers... These contraptions cannot go over 50 watts without going over 10% of THD and even then ... they mostly are 30 watts/max, I am being generous, and can only drive highly efficient speakers ... Vocals of females are decent to good on those, males, not so much, not realistic .. Symphonic ... Don't try .. Pop with Bass? Come on! This is not music .. Hip-Hop !!?? !!! Hip!!??? Hop!?? not on my system .. I remember one of those systems with some kind of horn-loaded single-driver, it could play loud to unbelievable levels ... I asked, and was granted to listen to Rush's Tom Sawyer ... ... ... It wasn't recognizable , it had to be the pressing, since the owner played only LP and tapes... . The host then pulled a Rebecca Pigeon to really showcase the 1/2 million dollars system ... Often one comes back from these auditions, and the only thing that comes to mind is confusion: How can such an expensive system sound so bad... and yet, seem to be enjoyed by its owner... The other audiophiles present during the auditions. often go full superlatives, even expletive laced superlatives... but in private? The eyes do roll....
There was during this audition, a young audiophile who wanted to measure the system.. He was never invited again in our get-together !

Peace.