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dCS Bartók Measurements by GoldenSound

Galliardist

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If we measure DCS the whole stack, would it be better? I mean the whole megabuck system?


It looks better as long as you avoid Filter 4, to the extent that it was probably the best measuring setup out there when it was first released.

You may need neither the upscaler nor the external clock. And the thing about approaching the limits of possible performance is that when cheaper products catch up, there’s nowhere further to go…

Some signs of channel differences here as with the Bartok though
 
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aj625

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If we measure DCS the whole stack, would it be better? I mean the whole megabuck system?


It looks better as long as you avoid Filter 4, to the extent that it was probably the best measuring setup out there when it was first released.

You may need neither the upscaler nor the external clock. And the thing about approaching the limits of possible performance is that when cheaper products catch up, there’s nowhere further to go…

Some signs of channel differences here as with the Bartok though
Channel imbalance is the most basic parameters which reflects in almost measurements. Even then it was not tackled by DCS engineers ? Cheaper alternatives like topping and smsl show lot more consistency in this regard.
 

Jimbob54

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I'm just confused now. I explained in my last post about how EVEN IF every single manufacturer is straight up lying, even by saying their devices will cure your cancer - that does nothing for dCS's situation about false advertising. Would you want this formally explained as to why because I'm not getting the feeling that you appreciate the concept I'm talking about.

As for "splitting hairs", it's not splitting any hairs, I took all four of your examples and explained why none of them necessarily reference an objectively verifiable claim, while dCS's claim does. It's not the same level of "bullshit" for reasons explained, but if you disagree with any of the four examples (that you yourself brought up as examples - not me) and the distinctions I drew for differentiation between those four and dCS's, you're welcome to say which, and why.

As for them having to say "unrivaled SINAD", that would be less of an affront, because they actually make the stronger claim where they say unrivaled technical performance. SINAD is only one aspect of technical evaluation of sonic aspects. So in reality, my point would be weaker than it currently is, because they say they're unrivaled in technical performance in general, meaning more than a single metric. Which is obviously false, they aren't unrivaled in multiple technical performance aspects - they're actually inferior on simple things like channel balance for example from a technical perspective.

But lets assume the most charitable interpretation of their claim, and they're referencing two technical performances they are unrivaled in (and not they they're technically unrivaled in them all or many). Which two aspects are they technically unrivaled in considering this is an advertisement for a DAC. Please lets not be childish and say "well uhh maybe it's technically unrivaled with how well it can crack a skull technically speaking HUR HUR you never know what they're talking about right??". If a DAC is being sold, it only makes sense the advertising is referencing technical and sonic performance of what/how a DAC functions as. And not the "technical sonic performance of the pleasing sound of someone's head being cracked open" or other stupidity people like to get smart with when getting in the weeds about false advertising claims..
No, I think we will have to agree to disagree. If anyone is that bothered they can take the marketing claims and Amir's measurements to the advertising regulator and see how far they get.
 

charleski

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I'm not getting the feeling that you appreciate the concept I'm talking about.
I think there's valid points on both sides of this argument. Yes, dCS's claims are objectionable: this is a competent design but nothing really special, and you can equal or better its performance for a fraction of the price.

But this is being sold in an entirely different market, and frankly its entire existence as a product is merely a reflection of the levels of wealth inequality that exist in our society. This is a luxury product, and what they're selling isn't a DAC, it's the entire notion of luxury that they use to surround it. We're used to dismissing such wild claims as marketing fluff, but in this case the marketing is an essential and critical part of the product itself, along with having the dealer fawn over you and commend the sophistication of your taste that led you to purchase such an outrageously expensive product. You buy this to have the warm glow that comes from believing you're enjoying a supreme experience beyond the reach of the unwashed masses. You aren't going to get that with a DAC from Benchmark, especially not when they point out that while DAC3 is better than its predecessor, you won't be able to tell the difference as they're all below the threshold of audibility.

If there's a problem here, it lies in the luxury marketplace itself, and the social conditions that lead to its expansion. I think @Inner Space's concern for dCS's future is unfounded. The luxury market is doing very well for itself, which is why we see a steady growth in the number of increasingly obscenely-priced products aimed at people who want to convert the numbers in their bank account into an aura of distinction.
 

Galliardist

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I think there's valid points on both sides of this argument. Yes, dCS's claims are objectionable: this is a competent design but nothing really special, and you can equal or better its performance for a fraction of the price.

But this is being sold in an entirely different market, and frankly its entire existence as a product is merely a reflection of the levels of wealth inequality that exist in our society. This is a luxury product, and what they're selling isn't a DAC, it's the entire notion of luxury that they use to surround it. We're used to dismissing such wild claims as marketing fluff, but in this case the marketing is an essential and critical part of the product itself, along with having the dealer fawn over you and commend the sophistication of your taste that led you to purchase such an outrageously expensive product. You buy this to have the warm glow that comes from believing you're enjoying a supreme experience beyond the reach of the unwashed masses. You aren't going to get that with a DAC from Benchmark, especially not when they point out that while DAC3 is better than its predecessor, you won't be able to tell the difference as they're all below the threshold of audibility.

If there's a problem here, it lies in the luxury marketplace itself, and the social conditions that lead to its expansion. I think @Inner Space's concern for dCS's future is unfounded. The luxury market is doing very well for itself, which is why we see a steady growth in the number of increasingly obscenely-priced products aimed at people who want to convert the numbers in their bank account into an aura of distinction.
Hm. Interesting. I agree with a lot of the sentiment of this and disagree with it at exactly the same time.

The thing is, I have recently bought products that, while cheaper than the DCS items mentioned here by some way, fall into this "luxury" bracket. Yet I don't believe for one moment that i have bought a supreme experience beyond the reach of say, a Topping D90 owner. In fact, my expensive amp when level matched at my normal listening level, sounds the same as my previous amp. It's only on the very rare occasions that I turn it up that I get any advantage.

Similarly, I know that my SACD player (bought because my wife wanted a disc player, in fact) is inferior in standard measurement than the DAC I would have bought instead - and that there is, again, no real sonic difference. I "know" of a couple of very specific moments on a couple of discs where it seemingly and at a distance gives more detail than the player I had before, but worth it? Not really for the sound.

I've never believed in audio magic, and as for the dealer fawning over me, I was as good as shown the door by some of the staff because I refused to also buy the expected high end cables and accessories! The owner, somewhat more hard headed, gave me a very good discount to keep the sale...

I get some satisfaction from the more substantial construction, some more expensive parts, the feel and the remote control quality, and the fact of a substantial and well made drive mechanism. So maybe these are "luxury", rather than better design and engineering? And I can afford them not because I'm rich, but rather because I have saved over many years - and I don't drink smoke or anything like that, we have a very modest apartment, neither of us can drive so don't have the cost of running a motor vehicle, and so on and so on.

No fancy rich background, either. As you come from Manchester, I hope you'll appreciate some of my past - I lived and volunteered/worked in Hulme for 20 years before it was redeveloped. The community I lived in back then was broken up and moved on.

There is, and I'm sure you can see it here, a wide range of approaches and reasons for buying hifi hardware. Some of those who disapprove of buying more expensive items turn out to have spent just as much on multiple systems, DACs, headphones, etc.

As for social changes, wealth is maybe flaunted more these days, but some of the TV and audio stuff back in the 1950s could cost as much as a house did then and still sold well. There's always been a class and economic divide and there have always been obscenely priced items for those with money. I won't go further because there is after all a ban on politics here for good reason.
 

aj625

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Seems DCS has again shown his money power. Golden sound posted his measurements of Bartok on headfi fb page. That post was deleted. When I questioned the same my posts were deleted too. I don't know what will they gain by this. Instead of designing their products better or revising their pricing they are resorting to cheap tactics of blocking and deleting the post. Better they respond to the measurements. After all people spent huge amount ranging in five figures.
 

Jimbob54

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Seems DCS has again shown his money power. Golden sound posted his measurements of Bartok on headfi fb page. That post was deleted. When I questioned the same my posts were deleted too. I don't know what will they gain by this. Instead of designing their products better or revising their pricing they are resorting to cheap tactics of blocking and deleting the post. Better they respond to the measurements. After all people spent huge amount ranging in five figures.
Now thats the insidious part. That or Jude and co dont want 3rd party measurements posted full stop. But I suspect favourable measurements may not have been deleted.
 

Galliardist

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Hm. Interesting. I agree with a lot of the sentiment of this and disagree with it at exactly the same time.

The thing is, I have recently bought products that, while cheaper than the DCS items mentioned here by some way, fall into this "luxury" bracket. Yet I don't believe for one moment that i have bought a supreme experience beyond the reach of say, a Topping D90 owner. In fact, my expensive amp when level matched at my normal listening level, sounds the same as my previous amp. It's only on the very rare occasions that I turn it up that I get any advantage.

Similarly, I know that my SACD player (bought because my wife wanted a disc player, in fact) is inferior in standard measurement than the DAC I would have bought instead - and that there is, again, no real sonic difference. I "know" of a couple of very specific moments on a couple of discs where it seemingly and at a distance gives more detail than the player I had before, but worth it? Not really for the sound.

I've never believed in audio magic, and as for the dealer fawning over me, I was as good as shown the door by some of the staff because I refused to also buy the expected high end cables and accessories! The owner, somewhat more hard headed, gave me a very good discount to keep the sale...

I get some satisfaction from the more substantial construction, some more expensive parts, the feel and the remote control quality, and the fact of a substantial and well made drive mechanism. So maybe these are "luxury", rather than better design and engineering? And I can afford them not because I'm rich, but rather because I have saved over many years - and I don't drink smoke or anything like that, we have a very modest apartment, neither of us can drive so don't have the cost of running a motor vehicle, and so on and so on.

No fancy rich background, either. As you come from Manchester, I hope you'll appreciate some of my past - I lived and volunteered/worked in Hulme for 20 years before it was redeveloped. The community I lived in back then was broken up and moved on.

There is, and I'm sure you can see it here, a wide range of approaches and reasons for buying hifi hardware. Some of those who disapprove of buying more expensive items turn out to have spent just as much on multiple systems, DACs, headphones, etc.

As for social changes, wealth is maybe flaunted more these days, but some of the TV and audio stuff back in the 1950s could cost as much as a house did then and still sold well. There's always been a class and economic divide and there have always been obscenely priced items for those with money. I won't go further because there is after all a ban on politics here for good reason.
Reading this, I want to add that, yes, there was a subjective moment in the buying process when I listened to the components and was impressed- I had been disappointed listening to alternatives. It didn’t matter that some of those products would sound the same as what I have now. Handling products in store, and the dealer setup, play a role in what we “hear” there that we don’t get with online purchases. It has a bearing on the purchase of more expensive items, I’m sure.
 

Galliardist

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Seems DCS has again shown his money power. Golden sound posted his measurements of Bartok on headfi fb page. That post was deleted. When I questioned the same my posts were deleted too. I don't know what will they gain by this. Instead of designing their products better or revising their pricing they are resorting to cheap tactics of blocking and deleting the post. Better they respond to the measurements. After all people spent huge amount ranging in five figures.
Here in Australia we had a recent legal decision regarding Facebook page owners being legally liable for others’ comments on their pages. I wouldn’t blame anyone here or elsewhere for being very careful in managing anything Facebook related, they could get sued here.
 

Tks

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No, I think we will have to agree to disagree. If anyone is that bothered they can take the marketing claims and Amir's measurements to the advertising regulator and see how far they get.

Not sure why anyone would need to do that. Let's say legally... false advertising in a hypothetical country was completely legal.

What I'm more interested in hearing - is your take. In your opinion, do you think saying things like "unrivaled sonic and technical performance" is something that "should" entail a legal definition and be open to evaluation? Or do you think making a claim about technical performance of something is just like the slogan "Gillette, The Best A Man Can Get"?

Basically I'm asking you, if you think the claim dCS makes is one you would allow all companies to make freely as they please if you were a legislator or policy maker because it's more beneficial for fostering more informed consumers?
 

Jimbob54

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Not sure why anyone would need to do that. Let's say legally... false advertising in a hypothetical country was completely legal.

What I'm more interested in hearing - is your take. In your opinion, do you think saying things like "unrivaled sonic and technical performance" is something that "should" entail a legal definition and be open to evaluation? Or do you think making a claim about technical performance of something is just like the slogan "Gillette, The Best A Man Can Get"?

Basically I'm asking you, if you think the claim dCS makes is one you would allow all companies to make freely as they please if you were a legislator or policy maker because it's more beneficial for fostering more informed consumers?
I think if you are paying good money for something that makes claims of that nature (unrivaled X and Y) you should be asking what that means, how it's commonly measured and how the device in question compares to pèers. Had they stated specs that support that assertion and they were either misstated or massively off the pace of rivals then the regulators would have a chance. But "sonic and technical performance" is still way too open on its own to challenge IMO. Readers here might understand better than some how that might look in measurements.

As we know, that's an area manufacturers of all types are wary of doing in hifi though obviously some are jumping at the chance to play the numbers game.
 

Tks

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I think if you are paying good money for something that makes claims of that nature (unrivaled X and Y) you should be asking what that means, how it's commonly measured and how the device in question compares to pèers. Had they stated specs that support that assertion and they were either misstated or massively off the pace of rivals then the regulators would have a chance. But "sonic and technical performance" is still way too open on its own to challenge IMO. Readers here might understand better than some how that might look in measurements.

As we know, that's an area manufacturers of all types are wary of doing in hifi though obviously some are jumping at the chance to play the numbers game.

I'm sorry but that completely ignored my post, you didn't actually give your take.

Secondly, I explained the claim they made can be easily deduced as to what they mean when they say technical performance. We can simply used specs otherwise companies publish in the "specs" section. So things like THD+N, (and the others). Again, unless you're going to equate Gillette's slogan by saying "well uhh dCS could mean the technical performance of strong their case is when used as a bludgeoning tool, so we shouldn't jump to any assumptions what they mean when they mention technical and sonic qualities as being unrivaled", you can't tell me the claim they make is ambiguous or should be seen as equal to a Gillette slogan (and the other three you mentioned).

I'll request once more you try and produce an answer to the questions I posed prior. If you were in charge of legislation, would you let companies make claims like this as freely as dSC is doing now?

Also one other thing I want to draw your attention to since it seems you're really not giving this ordeal as much thought. When you say we should "be asking what that means". Firstly, I'm not the one that should be to be asking shit, it ought to have been provided on their site using common measurement metrics as produced by actual measurement devices like a Rohde and Schwarz, or an Audio Precision - and making that happen is what regulators ought be doing if there were laws and enforcement efforts worth a damn out there to police this sort of garbage. So no I don't think is should be asking anything, unless you take dCS to be actually retarded, as if they have no idea what actual measurements that prove technical performance actually entails. Second, it's actually a case against them if they're going to be making claims of technical superiority, yet somehow be allowed to withhold the actual metrics in support of the claim that should have been provided using some commonly used ones like some of the industry in what constitutes "technical performance". But no, of course not - this company instead hides behind nebulous terms like Spurious Response or Residual Noise of "24-bit data".
 

Jimbob54

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I'm sorry but that completely ignored my post, you didn't actually give your take.

Secondly, I explained the claim they made can be easily deduced as to what they mean when they say technical performance. We can simply used specs otherwise companies publish in the "specs" section. So things like THD+N, (and the others). Again, unless you're going to equate Gillette's slogan by saying "well uhh dCS could mean the technical performance of strong their case is when used as a bludgeoning tool, so we shouldn't jump to any assumptions what they mean when they mention technical and sonic qualities as being unrivaled", you can't tell me the claim they make is ambiguous or should be seen as equal to a Gillette slogan (and the other three you mentioned).

I'll request once more you try and produce an answer to the questions I posed prior. If you were in charge of legislation, would you let companies make claims like this as freely as dSC is doing now?

Also one other thing I want to draw your attention to since it seems you're really not giving this ordeal as much thought. When you say we should "be asking what that means". Firstly, I'm not the one that should be to be asking shit, it ought to have been provided on their site using common measurement metrics as produced by actual measurement devices like a Rohde and Schwarz, or an Audio Precision - and making that happen is what regulators ought be doing if there were laws and enforcement efforts worth a damn out there to police this sort of garbage. So no I don't think is should be asking anything, unless you take dCS to be actually retarded, as if they have no idea what actual measurements that prove technical performance actually entails. Second, it's actually a case against them if they're going to be making claims of technical superiority, yet somehow be allowed to withhold the actual metrics in support of the claim that should have been provided using some commonly used ones like some of the industry in what constitutes "technical performance". But no, of course not - this company instead hides behind nebulous terms like Spurious Response or Residual Noise of "24-bit data".
No, bored now. We don't agree.

And unless "you" are the hypothetical purchaser of this device in my prior post, then no, neither "you" nor I should be asking what any of their bullshit means. Please try to keep up.
 
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Tks

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No, bored now. We don't agree.

And unless "you" are the hypothetical purchaser of this device in my prior post, then no, neither "you" nor I should be asking what any of their bullshit means. Please try to keep up.

So just to be clear, you won't give your take on whether they should be scrutinized for making the claims they've made about sonic technical performance being unrivaled? And your main rational for taking that position is because, in your opinion, other companies also engage in this behavior? And now you also make the claim that no one other than people who've decided on a purchase should be asking what anything they say actually mean?

You could be bored (and not agree, though not agree with what precisely?), but I find it simply preposterous to say that the only people that should be inquiring for elaboration or substantiation of claims a company makes should only be from people who are going to be purchasers of something. That would mean companies could literally say anything, and as long as you're not a purchaser, a company should be allowed to make any claims they want and we "non purchasers" ought not even be inquiring as to what the meaning of claims are?

So in summary, let companies make claims they want, and don't inquire about what they're saying if you're not buying something...

Yeah sorry, but I find this ridiculous. It's the same sort of thing you hear when Amir talked about MQA "don't like it? you're free not to buy it, it doesn't cost you anything".

The whole reason I want these sorts of things scrutinized is because I don't want this sort of stuff to be present in the industry at all, as I find it an affront to sensibilities of what I would consider the range of normal behavior. Just because I don't buy this DAC or I try to avoid MQA, doesn't mean I don't have an interest in others also being warded away from these things. And I take policy initiatives + abundance of information to be the best means of ridding ourselves of these sorts of players in the industry, or have them relent to what I would consider an overall better industry practice and landscape in general.. This is why when you tell me "oh but others are doing it" (though those 4 examples you brought up are not apt analogies as I've explained, yet I granted as if they were for the sake of argument) it doesn't matter to me, because I'd take them all out of the playing field if I could, even if indeed they were all literally worse than dSC.
 

Jimbob54

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So just to be clear, you won't give your take on whether they should be scrutinized for making the claims they've made about sonic technical performance being unrivaled? And your main rational for taking that position is because, in your opinion, other companies also engage in this behavior? And now you also make the claim that no one other than people who've decided on a purchase should be asking what anything they say actually mean?

You could be bored (and not agree, though not agree with what precisely?), but I find it simply preposterous to say that the only people that should be inquiring for elaboration or substantiation of claims a company makes should only be from people who are going to be purchasers of something. That would mean companies could literally say anything, and as long as you're not a purchaser, a company should be allowed to make any claims they want and we "non purchasers" ought not even be inquiring as to what the meaning of claims are?

So in summary, let companies make claims they want, and don't inquire about what they're saying if you're not buying something...

Yeah sorry, but I find this ridiculous. It's the same sort of thing you hear when Amir talked about MQA "don't like it? you're free not to buy it, it doesn't cost you anything".

The whole reason I want these sorts of things scrutinized is because I don't want this sort of stuff to be present in the industry at all, as I find it an affront to sensibilities of what I would consider the range of normal behavior. Just because I don't buy this DAC or I try to avoid MQA, doesn't mean I don't have an interest in others also being warded away from these things. And I take policy initiatives + abundance of information to be the best means of ridding ourselves of these sorts of players in the industry, or have them relent to what I would consider an overall better industry practice and landscape in general.. This is why when you tell me "oh but others are doing it" (though those 4 examples you brought up are not apt analogies as I've explained, yet I granted as if they were for the sake of argument) it doesn't matter to me, because I'd take them all out of the playing field if I could, even if indeed they were all literally worse than dSC.
Read my posts in this thread properly. My view is very clear on this.
 

Tks

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Read my posts in this thread properly. My view is very clear on this.
It would be a simple yes or no, instead of my having to wonder if I'm strawmanning you though?
 

Jimbob54

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It would be a simple yes or no, instead of my having to wonder if I'm strawmanning you though?
I know you are strawmanning me. If you have to wonder whether you are too then we are both in a bit of a pickle.
 

Tks

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Guess you really don't want to talk since you're wanting me to strawman you by not offering the simple yes or no that would be required in avoiding that path. Alrighty, enjoy the rest of the day I suppose.
 
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